Attempted forced change of repayment amount

Incisor

Premier wrote: »

Erm...do you understand exactly what a DD is?

The Originator (supplier) is in total control. They "pull" the funds; you can't "push" them.

"Pushing" funds on a regular basis is a Standing Order, not a Direct Debit.

Because of the unique way the DD scheme works, payers are given the protection of the Direct Debit Scheme Guarantee.

Erm do you understand? I agree with your descriptions of push and pull, but if we are talking pull and they try to take too much, then you have every right to instruct them not to pull that much. Again: Whose bl**ddy money is it?

Incisor

Cardew wrote: »

You really fail to understand the the whole principle of the DD scheme as the post above demonstrates.

Firstly you do not instruct you bank to pay any sum by DD; your supplier gives them that instruction.

Agreed.

Thus your bank will not accept any instruction from you to increase or decrease a DD. That instruction comes from your supplier.

By agreeing to pay by DD with any company, not just gas/electricity Companies but for water, phone, insurance, payment of credit cards, etc you are giving them the authority to vary the sum they take. .

only if you give them variable authority. And if you do and they threaten to take more, you can alter your authority to them and they must comply. That is the reason for the DD guarantee, so you can get your money back if they disobey your instructions.

If you don't like the scheme, then leave the scheme! it ain't compulsory!

If you feel that any company should justify any increase, then leave and find a company who will. I certainly don't know of any who will do so - unless you query the increase..

Whether or not they justify, they must respect the account holder's instructions. They cannot claim ownership to money by sending an arbitrary notice.

Incisor

Cardew wrote: »

That is a rather strange post..

In your little world, perhaps.

Nobody is saying you cannot dispute any change to a DD - in fact that is exactly what the OP shoud do.

However that is exactly the reason for the notice. To get your £10,000,000,000 into your account or contact them to dispute the sum.

However if they don't agree to reduce that sum, you will need to cancel your DD or accept that they will take the money..

No, they need to take no more money than you tell them they can have. If they can instruct the bank unilaterally, then they must also take an instruction from the account holder

The point being that when you enter into a DD agreement with any firm you are giving them authority to take any sum and it is not subject to the customer's agreement..

Rubbish. You are being too soft about this. They only have that authority as far as YOU let them

Of course it is "your bl**dy money" just as it is your choice or not to enter into a DD agreement with any firm..

That is in contradiction to your previous point. You can't have it both ways.

However if you do enter into an agreement you have to abide by the terms of that agreement.

And if companies want to have their fiongers in customers bank accounts, they too must abide, and take no more than they are told they can take.

Cardew

Incisor wrote: »

then you have every right to instruct them not to pull that much. Again: Whose bl**ddy money is it?

You are wrong! Absolutely wrong!

You can request them not to increase the amount, but you can't instruct them.

10 years ago I was paying less that 50% of my current DD sum. I would love to be able to have 'instructed' them not to increase my DD for 10 years.

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_debit

Direct debit or direct withdrawal is a payment system that allows an organisation to instruct their bank to collect varying amounts directly from customers' accounts, using an electronic funds transfer.

As said above, they can't take your "bl**dy money" if you have not agreed to DD payment; but if you have agreed then they can take varying amounts - it is the whole purpose of the scheme! Otherwise they would get you to pay by Standing Order.

kissmeimposh

Thanks for clarifying differences between DD and Standing Order.

OK, Adjusting my mock hypothetical letter to be more realistic, perhaps I should write to them instructing them them to halve my payment amount based on my preduction of consumption rather than notifying them that I'll do it myself, as they're the ones that can adjust the figure on the DD.

I have no indication at all that they have genuinely conducted any sort of review at all. They have given no indication of their calculation method or forecasted result. They claim they accounted for more than one type of energy while I the DD and my account number only is associated with one type. They purport to have written the letter on a day when their offices are closed.

To me it looks more like an underhanded sinsiter attempt to ARBITRARILY increase the monthly payments they recieve. Whether institutionalised or not, their conduct attracts contempt and warrants censure.

Premier_2

Incisor wrote: »

Erm do you understand? I agree with your descriptions of push and pull, but if we are talking pull and they try to take too much, then you have every right to instruct them not to pull that much. Again: Whose bl**ddy money is it?

Yes I understand. You can't instruct them not to take that amount of money, but you can request that they review their intentions.
I've mentioned this previously - it's also actually mentioned in my previous post

Cardew

Incisor,

Why not find and post one shred of evidence to support your theories. There is masses of information on this on the web.

Not how you think it should be - but how it is.

I say again, you are completely and totally wrong!

kissmeimposh

Cardew wrote: »

You are wrong! Absolutely wrong!Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_debit

Everyone's insights and contributions are appreciated; but,right or wrong, quoting Wikipedia :eek: doesn't normally enhance anyone's arguement.

Premier_2

Incisor wrote: »

...only if you give them variable authority...

Whenever a DD is raised, it's for variable amounts - please see earlier posts

Incisor wrote:

And if you do and they threaten to take more, you can alter your authority to them and they must comply.

No they don't

Incisor wrote:

That is the reason for the DD guarantee, so you can get your money back if they disobey your instructions.
Whether or not they justify, they must respect the account holder's instructions. They cannot claim ownership to money by sending an arbitrary notice.

No it isn't. The DD guarantee is for amounts collected in error (e.g. originator collects amount different to that specified in advance notice, no advance notice given, etc) not for amounts correctly collected, but which the payer doesn't wish to pay. However, the paying bank won't go into details of why a DD collection is wrong, it will take the payers word for it and refund the payer immediately.

Cardew

kissmeimposh wrote: »

Everyone's insights and contributions are appreciated; but,right or wrong, quoting Wikipedia :eek: doesn't normally enhance anyone's arguement.

OK BACS run the Direct Debit scheme, would this convince you?


http://www.bacs.co.uk/BACS/Consumers/Direct+Debit/What+is+it/

[QUOTE]
What is Direct Debit

A Direct Debit is an instruction from a customer to their bank or building society authorising an organisation to collect varying amounts from their account, as long as the customer has been given advance notice of the collection amounts and dates.

[/quote]

My bold and underlining

You, the customer, authorise an organisation to collect varing amounts!

That surely is crystal clear!

Google 'direct debit guarantee' for thousands of references on this.