Attempted forced change of repayment amount

Cardew

kissmeimposh wrote: »

My bank has advised me that the other side cannot alter the amount of the Direct Debit without my consent, but urged me to try to sort it with the merchant at first instance.
I will contact them but the means and wording of their 'notice' regarding the change was flawed for multiple reasons and I will not agree to pay more; and, in any event, the notice they provided was overly vague and misleading/inaccurate.
Aside from contacting them to insist on keeping the DD at the same level, or cancelling it if they don't agree, I have located their online complaint form and issue a strong complaint with view to taking it further outside the company if they decline to reasonably address each point I raise.

Your bank are wrong - or more likely you have misunderstood them.

The Direct Debit Guarantee is the same for all banks, see

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/27/27-directdebit-guarantee.htm

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]The direct debit guarantee applies to all banks and building societies taking part in the direct debit scheme. It says that:
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]If there is a change in the amount to be paid or the payment date, the person receiving the payment (the originator) must notify the customer in advance. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]If the originator or the bank/building society makes an error, the customer is guaranteed a full and immediate refund of the amount paid.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Customers can cancel a direct debit at any time by writing to their bank or building society. [/SIZE][/FONT]

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Premier_2

kissmeimposh wrote: »

My bank has advised me that the other side cannot alter the amount of the Direct Debit without my consent, but urged me to try to sort it with the merchant at first instance.
I will contact them but the means and wording of their 'notice' regarding the change was flawed for multiple reasons and I will not agree to pay more; and, in any event, the notice they provided was overly vague and misleading/inaccurate.
Aside from contacting them to insist on keeping the DD at the same level, or cancelling it if they don't agree, I have located their online complaint form and issue a strong complaint with view to taking it further outside the company if they decline to reasonably address each point I raise.

Your bank is either wrong or you mis-understood. As long as advance notice is correctly given, the originator is allowed to claim in line with that notice.

Why do you believe the wording of the advance notice is incorrect? It's very difficult to get wrong in any way, so I'd love to know why you think it is.

Incisor

Premier wrote: »

Your bank is either wrong or you mis-understood. As long as advance notice is correctly given, the originator is allowed to claim in line with that notice.

Rubbish. What is the point of them giving notice? So that you have time to shift in £10,000,000,000? No, the point is so that you can give them notice that they cannot take that amount. Once you give that notice, it is effectively a variation to the DD mandate, and payments in excess may be reclaimed via the DD mandate.

Good grief, people are so soft and compliant. It's your bl**ddy money in the first place [although if people are too soft, that will change]. So if you tell them to keep their hands off it, that is the end of it.

Cardew

Incisor wrote: »

Rubbish. What is the point of them giving notice? So that you have time to shift in £10,000,000,000? No, the point is so that you can give them notice that they cannot take that amount. Once you give that notice, it is effectively a variation to the DD mandate, and payments in excess may be reclaimed via the DD mandate.

Good grief, people are so soft and compliant. It's your bl**ddy money in the first place [although if people are too soft, that will change]. So if you tell them to keep their hands off it, that is the end of it.

That is a rather strange post.

Nobody is saying you cannot dispute any change to a DD - in fact that is exactly what the OP shoud do.

However that is exactly the reason for the notice. To get your £10,000,000,000 into your account or contact them to dispute the sum.

However if they don't agree to reduce that sum, you will need to cancel your DD or accept that they will take the money.

The point being that when you enter into a DD agreement with any firm you are giving them authority to take any sum and it is not subject to the customer's agreement.

Of course it is "your bl**dy money" just as it is your choice or not to enter into a DD agreement with any firm.

However if you do enter into an agreement you have to abide by the terms of that agreement.

kissmeimposh

Trying to reply to all questions/comments in one go:

Direct Debit is NOT intended to be a blank checque, or allowed to be treated as if it were.

I reached a specific agreement with the utility providor specifying a precise amount that I undertook to be paid each month, and with substantial effort I have adhered to it. They are the side attempting to instigate a change under vaguely stated pretenses.

If they want more dosh now, they need to do substantially more than send a letter (and they must provide not only advance notice but also reasonable notice, sufficient to make budgetary considerations and adjustments).

If their letter is computer generated and not considered by their human managers then that is their risk and problem and not a burden for which customers need to make sacrifices.

Their letter states that they "have calculated" that they "need" to increase the amount based on a prediction they do not define, elaborate or explain. Well, I think I will use less energy and am not willing to be penalized for their undefined prediction.

I also think I should recieve some compensation for seeking preliminary advice, researching the relevant code of practice, having to phone them and my bank, email and post by recorded delivery to them my query and complaint. If they had specific justication or rationale and had bothered to explain it then maybe I would not have to be out of time and pocket on responding in this way, but as they made so many lapses and dated the letter on a day they are closed an when even their phones are shut down I do not think I have to pay for addressing and discussing their 'courtesy' of their simply letting me know they are going to take more money without specifying the basis of how they reached that decision.

Premier_2

Incisor wrote: »

Rubbish. What is the point of them giving notice? So that you have time to shift in £10,000,000,000? No, the point is so that you can give them notice that they cannot take that amount. Once you give that notice, it is effectively a variation to the DD mandate, and payments in excess may be reclaimed via the DD mandate.

Good grief, people are so soft and compliant. It's your bl**ddy money in the first place [although if people are too soft, that will change]. So if you tell them to keep their hands off it, that is the end of it.

The point is so that the payer is aware of the intention to claim a different amount to that previously advised.

That payer can then decide if that is correct. If so, the payer has enough time in which to make necessary funds available. If, as would probably be the case in your example, it was incorrect, the originator could be informed. If no agreement was reached as to the validity or otherwise of the charge, the DDI could be cancelled before the money was claimed.

Alternatively, the paying bank would take the word of the payer as to an error and refund the payer immediately any amount deducted under the terms of the DD guarantee. The payer could also ask for consequential losses from the paying bank (e.g. bank fees incurred) but these do not need to be immediately refunded but only when the originator agrees that a mistake has occurred (and so fund the consquential loss claim)

Premier_2

kissmeimposh wrote: »

Trying to reply to all questions/comments in one go:

Direct Debit is NOT intended to be a blank checque, or allowed to be treated as if it were.

It is not a blank cheque as such, but it is the right for the originator to claim variable amounts at varying dates as advised to the payer.

kissmeimposh wrote:

I reached a specific agreement with the utility providor specifying a precise amount that I undertook to be paid each month, and with substantial effort I have adhered to it. They are the side attempting to instigate a change under vaguely stated pretenses.

The supplier now wishes to revise that agreed payment plan to prevent you running up a debt or perhaps to recover a debt already incurred.

kissmeimposh wrote:

If they want more dosh now, they need to do substantially more than send a letter (and they must provide not only advance notice but also reasonable notice, sufficient to make budgetary considerations and adjustments).

I think you are confusing two issues here. The bank will pay a direct debit if claimed. The originator has done all that is required as far as the direct debit scheme is concerned to collect those funds.
If you dispute the amount the supplier wishes to claim is a separate matter - you need to contact the supplier to discuss this with them and see if you can come to a mutually agreeable resolution.
You could always cancel the DD mandate, but this may put you in breach of the regular payment plan you currently have with your supplier. They may decide remove you from that tariff and place you on an alternative payment plan.

kissmeimposh wrote:

If their letter is computer generated and not considered by their human managers then that is their risk and problem and not a burden for which customers need to make sacrifices.

Their letter states that they "have calculated" that they "need" to increase the amount based on a prediction they do not define, elaborate or explain. Well, I think I will use less energy and am not willing to be penalized for their undefined prediction.

I also think I should recieve some compensation for seeking preliminary advice, researching the relevant code of practice, having to phone them and my bank, email and post by recorded delivery to them my query and complaint. If they had specific justication or rationale and had bothered to explain it then maybe I would not have to be out of time and pocket on responding in this way, but as they made so many lapses and dated the letter on a day they are closed an when even their phones are shut down I do not think I have to pay for addressing and discussing their 'courtesy' of their simply letting me know they are going to take more money without specifying the basis of how they reached that decision.

Best of luck in any claims for compensation :rolleyes:

kissmeimposh

So if I have an agreement with the suppier to pay by DD and preducted I'd use much less energy this year, I could just send them a letter before the next payment date, stating:

'Dear noble energypeople,
I have considered my energy usage in conducting a prediction and the outcome is that I will be using less energy this year. As such, I'm cutting my DD payment in half.

You don't need to do anything. You'll begin to recieve my reduced payments as of the week after next.'

If on the next assessment that I undertake it transpires that I predict that I'll need more energy, I'll let you know and will then increase my payments accordingly.' ?

That's basically what they've done in the opposite direction.

Premier_2

Erm...do you understand exactly what a DD is?

The Originator (supplier) is in total control. They "pull" the funds; you can't "push" them.

"Pushing" funds on a regular basis is a Standing Order, not a Direct Debit.

Because of the unique way the DD scheme works, payers are given the protection of the Direct Debit Scheme Guarantee.

You won't find an energy supplier that allows you to pay regular monthy payments by standing order and receive the usual discounts. Other payment plans are available (e.g pay on bill receipt, prepayment meter, etc) but you won't get the attractive prices/discount the regular monthly payment plan provides.

As already said, if you don't agree with the revised amount they want, contact them and start negotiating. They are not mind readers. They don't know you have suddenly reduced consumption.

Cardew

kissmeimposh wrote: »

So if I have an agreement with the suppier to pay by DD and preducted I'd use much less energy this year, I could just send them a letter before the next payment date, stating:

'Dear noble energypeople,
I have considered my energy usage in conducting a prediction and the outcome is that I will be using less energy this year. As such, I'm cutting my DD payment in half.

You don't need to do anything. You'll begin to recieve my reduced payments as of the week after next.'

If on the next assessment that I undertake it transpires that I predict that I'll need more energy, I'll let you know and will then increase my payments accordingly.' ?

That's basically what they've done in the opposite direction.

You really fail to understand the the whole principle of the DD scheme as the post above demonstrates.

Firstly you do not instruct you bank to pay any sum by DD; your supplier gives them that instruction.

Thus your bank will not accept any instruction from you to increase or decrease a DD. That instruction comes from your supplier.

By agreeing to pay by DD with any company, not just gas/electricity Companies but for water, phone, insurance, payment of credit cards, etc you are giving them the authority to vary the sum they take.

If you don't like the scheme, then leave the scheme! it ain't compulsory!

If you feel that any company should justify any increase, then leave and find a company who will. I certainly don't know of any who will do so - unless you query the increase.

If you manage to get compensation then post details on this Board so every one of the millionsof us who have exactly the same happen to them regularly can get compensation - even though we accept the company have done absolutely nothing wrong!