The SayNoTo0870 Article Discussion Area

[MSE Archna]

This thread is specifically to discuss the content of the

The SayNoTo0870 Article

To discuss or ask a question about the article: click reply

To read the old thread click here.

[andrew.sheldon]

We always phone 0870 numbers on our mobiles - they are included in the inclusive calls on most O2 monthly plans (and orange OVP O2 plans), so we get a mobile deal (with full cashback) each year just to use for this purpose. This works for 0845 numbers too, but not 0871.

Andrew

[bbb_uk]

o2 are one of the very few (if any) that actually still include 0845/0870. The problem now is that some companies may migrate to either 0844 (likely cost they will choose will be either 4ppm or 5ppm all the time) or 0871 due to the loss of revenue that will happen in the next two years on 0870 numbers.

As briefly mentioned by Martin in his article, Virgin Holidays, have recently introduced an 0871 for their sales line for holidays to Bush Gardens, Tamper Bay and even advertise it as a 'national rate' number - discussed on Sayno here .

Another one is that Cahoot have changed their customer services number from an 0870 to an 0844 costing 4ppm all the time. Although slightly cheaper in the daytime, during the evening & weekend Cahoot will earn more money - discussed on Sayno here .

[daves]

We use an 0870 at work ... the problem is that when you are a small business 0845 will not do as you incurr charges. I am all in favour of dumping the revenue side of things, to be honest this is miniscule on 0870, most profits go to BT. But you have 0870 or your have 0845/0800 both of which cost you ingress charges. Yes you can find some providers who will give you an 0845 number with no ingress calls, but there are limits with that as they are taking a hit on the egress charges.

If BT stopped fiddling with the local area codes and costing businesses a fortune to redo their stationary/signwriting then you may see less of these numbers being used .. at least in the small business sector.

[Heinz]

Originally Posted by daves

But you have 0870 or your have 0845/0800 both of which cost you ingress charges.

I don't understand that. What's wrong with ordinary 0161 xxx XXXX or 020 xxxx XXXX numbers? There are no ingress charges for those.

Customers know the cost of calls (3p/minute peak and 5.5p for up to an hour off peak - or less if you use a prefix-dial provider or have a calls package other than BT's standard) and some, like me, appreciate not being ripped off by disguised premium rate 084/087 numbers. As a result, they are happy to deal with such companies again instead of doing everything possible to avoid doing so.

BTW, Oftel (now Ofcom) are to blame for the STD code changes, not BT.

[John A]

I have used SayNoTo0870.com for years and in business had built up a substantial database of phone numbers before 0845 and 0870 numbers were invented. I have, where possible, added these to the SayNoTo0870 database.

My questions are.
1. To get one of these numbers the client must have an ordinary phone number which would fall within a free calls package. Is the number provider at liberty to block the ordinary number from appearing in a directory enquiries search?
2. Recently I wanted to contact Alliance & Leicester Business Banking. I phoned an alternative number found on SayNoTo0870.com but the department refused to speak to me insisting I had to ring their 0870 number. Is this becoming common place?

[Heinz]

Originally Posted by John A

Recently I wanted to contact Alliance & Leicester Business Banking. I phoned an alternative number found on SayNoTo0870.com but the department refused to speak to me insisting I had to ring their 0870 number. Is this becoming common place?

Welcome to the MSE forums John A.

With A&L, I'm afraid that is a familiar story (more fool them, they obviously don't realise the damage they are causing to their business).

However, I had success the other Saturday - see HERE (I forgot to mention in that post that I did use the 141 prefix on that call).

[Tart]

My doctors surgery decided they needed a new IVR (automated answering service, choose 1 for, 2 for etc) so they purchased the new system and decided to pay for it with the rebate from an 0870 number. Considering it was taking around 20 minutes to actually get through on the original STD number anyway, I was outraged at the increased cost to patients, having sold these numbers in the past I was aware of the increased call costs. I therefore wrote a letter to the local newspaper explaining about the increased call costs, and the alternatives, ie local rate numbers which manage the calls the same, but are cheaper to call. Whilst not wishing to take credit for the change, it did kick the ball rolling and eventually the surgery changed to a local rate number. Just goes to show that you can make some companies/organisations change these numbers if pressure is applied.

[Desertmole]

How can I find out exactly what I am being charged when I dial an 0870 number? Last year one of our customers changed their system so that everyone in the business has a direct-dial 0870 number. They are simply a distributor in the automotive industry, and I can't imagine that like some "help lines" at banks and Internet service providers, they regard this as a money-generating tool.

If I could find out what they were charging, I could choose to get an alternate number to call them on.

[Heinz]

Originally Posted by Tart

My doctors surgery decided they needed a new IVR (automated answering service, choose 1 for, 2 for etc) so they purchased the new system and decided to pay for it with the rebate from an 0870 number. Considering it was taking around 20 minutes to actually get through on the original STD number anyway, I was outraged at the increased cost to patients, having sold these numbers in the past I was aware of the increased call costs. I therefore wrote a letter to the local newspaper explaining about the increased call costs, and the alternatives, ie local rate numbers which manage the calls the same, but are cheaper to call. Whilst not wishing to take credit for the change, it did kick the ball rolling and eventually the surgery changed to a local rate number. Just goes to show that you can make some companies/organisations change these numbers if pressure is applied.

I suspect you've been duped again. Under pressure, the NHS forced GPs to change from 0870 numbers but didn't go the whole hog and accepted just a change to 0844 numbers - which are NOT 'local rate'. The replacement 0844 numbers that GPs chose (or, more accurately, that NEG, which installed the systems 'free of charge' chose) are charged at 4p or 5p per minute (so that NEG's cut of the call costs patients are having to pay was not reduced too much). Isn't it nice when government works so closely with the private sector?

Originally Posted by Desertmole

How can I find out exactly what I am being charged when I dial an 0870 number?

From a BT residential landline on BT Together Option 1, it costs 7.51p/minute 6am to 6pm Monday to Friday, 3.75p/minute 6pm to 6am Monday to Friday and 1.5p/minute at weekends to call all but a few 0870 numbers (see Page 3 HERE ).

Those prices compare with 3p/minute 6am to 6pm Monday to Friday and 5.5p for up to an hour evenings and weekends to an 01 or 02 number.

[mrken30]

Why not get your own back, I have signed up for my personal 0870 number couple of years ago now, its useful as if I move house I can keep the same number. More than that when I give it to these 0870 companies they complain its not in the correct format , they complain , but accept it when I ask them for a non 0870 number. Also I think because its not accepted into a lot of databases , stops a lot of unwanted phone calls.

[wstephenp]

Firstly, don't even think of calling one using Skype! £ 4.75 for a 15 min call to get a quote for household insurance! (Dial this number, could be the best saving you make all year 0870.........) NO!!!!!!!

One way is to track down their Fax number, Gather up all your faxes all week for quotes, requests etc.

Fax your enquirey and request that they call you back. If you have free calls at the weekend, and can send faxes from your computer, and it's dead easy, and it's FREE!!!! I can do it and I'm over 50.

Try writing to them, and look up old correspondence, both will usually provide their "old" number or their Fax number.

If it's a local town, call in, meet the person say Hello, ask for a direct number, it's good practice to know the PERSON (and you can get the fax and or direct dial (non 0870 numkber)

DON'T PAY IT!!! wstephenP

[Flat London]

My worry is that Ofcom's changes are going to amount, overall, to no signicant benefit to the consumer (as per usual with most things ofcom does).

This is because they have chosen to leave 0845 numbers alone for the time being (no changes proposed to these) and they give some ludicrous reason quoting that ISPs still use them and thus they need to be kept the same. Without going into a detailed rant about this, Ofcome is taking the biscuit if they think they can pass this excuse over us.

I worry that if 0870 is clamped down on, then the most miserly companies will turn to 0845 where they can still revenue share even though they won't get as much as 0870. Indeed they may also turn to 0844 and the like, and rely on the ignorance of customers who don;t relaise that these cost more to call too. I think the problem with 0845 is being overlooked by people focussing on 0870. 0845 is just as bad a tool for ripping people off. You still pay up to twice the amount of a normal daytime landline call; these calls don't benefit from 'inlcusive' calls packages that you're already paying a premium for; and just as importantly, mobile operators don't distingusih the difference between 0845 and 0870 and still charge around 10p for them.

This last point with mobile operators is crucial I feel. At work when I need to make a personal call to some company's customer services (many still have 9-5 opening hours unfortunately), I can't use my office phone so have to use the mobile. At this point, even if 0845 is cheaper than 0870 on landline, it makes no difference on mobile. They charge extortionate rates and thus Ofcom should take theor charges on too.

[fiish]

I think Ofcom should make mobile providers include those numbers in their inclusive allowances. Considering the call charges after an allowance has been used up, it probably costs them less to connect an 08xx number than it does to call another network's mobile number.

Personally, I do not see such a thing happening in the near future. What I have seen in my own provider, O2, is the prices of those calls being raised. (35ppm for an 0871 call, and not included in my free minutes when 0870, 0844, 0845, and 0800 numbers are? Sounds a little silly :-/)

Explanation could be: a lot of calling cards for international calls use those numbers for access, and O2 or Orange certainly would prefer you to pay the 80ppm it costs to call Malaysia (that's home for me!) rather than draining the 100 minutes you didn't use into a low-cost calling card. Of course, those calling cards provide an 0207 number nowadays, so we still get our way in the end....

Sigh.

Yeah, I realise it's quite a rant.

[bbb_uk]

Originally Posted by Desertmole

Last year one of our customers changed their system so that everyone in the business has a direct-dial 0870 number. They are simply a distributor in the automotive industry, and I can't imagine that like some "help lines" at banks and Internet service providers, they regard this as a money-generating tool.

I'm afraid the most likely reason for the use of these numbers is as a money-generating tool. Your customers may have been missold these 0870 numbers by their teleco with some speech about "they only cost the same as national rate calls and you can earn revenue at the same time all with no more expense to your customers." Unfortunately, these are lies still being sold today.

Your customers could have chosen 0845 and, although not ideal, does cost people calling them less than an 0870. The only difference between 0870 & 0845 is that they may not get revenue back on 0845 calls (although some teleco's do but very limited compared to 0870 numbers).

You'd be surprised at the uptake of these numbers not just by the "big" businesses (and gov depts) but also by the little ones as well mainly because it is a premium rate number in "disguise" (which ofcom kindof admit). They are a disguise simply because most consumers aren't aware that revenue sharing takes place on these numbers thinking that only happens for 09x numbers which are regulated for our protection unlike 084/087x numbers.

[bakie]

I spotted a new trick in the last few months. I buy quite a lot of clothes via the internet, especially when there are sales on.

A couple of months back I placed an order, only to recieve a letter a few weeks later saying there had been a problem with my credit card authorisation, and could I phone an 0870 number to sort it out. I thought it was a bit odd, as I was sure the card had been validated online, and a bit mean to have an 0870 number, but I called anyway and got it sorted.

Then the same thing happened a few weeks later with another company. 15%off if you ordered within a couple of weeks, so I placed an order, but it was three weeks later I got a letter saying my card had been declined. This time when I called I got a little suspicious and decided not to go ahead. I then phoned my credit card company to see why the transaction had been declined, to be told that company hadn't even sumitted a transaction.

I wrote and complained, and got a nice reply which failed to answer of my questions. So keep your eye open for this. I guess it's a good way of making money when you are selling the goods more cheaply than usual.

[beaz]

Well done for pushing this. I use the site a lot. I have (had) an IFA wanting my business and was ablt to tell him I didn't do business with firms with 0870 numbers!
If desparate, I email them if possible, otherwise write to them, only equivalent to 3 mins premium rate classical music !!

[Heinz]

Originally Posted by bbb_uk

You'd be surprised at the uptake of these numbers not just by the "big" businesses (and gov depts) but also by the little ones as well mainly because it is a premium rate number in "disguise" (which ofcom kindof admit). They are a disguise simply because most consumers aren't aware that revenue sharing takes place on these numbers thinking that only happens for 09x numbers which are regulated for our protection unlike 084/087x numbers.

But the 070 numbers used by Patientline are even more devious - most people assume they are mobile numbers because they start 07 when, in fact, they cost 49p per minute to call peak rate. At that sort of cost, they should be forced to use 09 numbers so everyone is aware they're Premium Rate.

[alibabaery]

I complained to talktalk about having to use 0870, which outside my package, to get information from them and was told that talktalk customers were identified, if in a package deal, and not charged for the call. I will check my bill at the end of the month to check this out! Small consolation but sensible. I hated the idea of having to pay to complain.

[creddish]

Originally Posted by alibabaery

I complained to talktalk about having to use 0870, which outside my package, to get information from them and was told that talktalk customers were identified, if in a package deal, and not charged for the call. I will check my bill at the end of the month to check this out! Small consolation but sensible. I hated the idea of having to pay to complain.

Calls to the Talk Talk customer services number 08704441820 appear on your bill but are charged as zero cost.

Colin