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Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?
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Hi,
I currently have a domestic LPG system running off bottles and am thinking of changing to bulk.
We currently pay £52.50 for a 47 kg (98.1 litre) bottle, which works out at 53.5 per litre.
I live just outside Wolverhampton (no mains gas and oil is not an option). Best deal so far is from a local company called Callowgas (£150 for installation of an underground tank, then 45 p per litre and £100 per year servicing).
Does anyone have any experience of this company or can suggest a better alternative.
Cheers0 -
Hi
I wonder if anyone can answer me this....
MacGas have just put their price up in Perthshire by 6ppl - the contract I am in with BP(who they have just taken over) states that if the price rise is more than my contracted 2.5ppl increase, then I can terminate. Sadly, they are quoting another clause saying that they do not have to provide evidence that backs up the price rise and that tough luck - i am stuck with them until June 3013 - Calor have offered me 10.95 ppl cheaper - what can i do?0 -
Hi
I wonder if anyone can answer me this....
MacGas have just put their price up in Perthshire by 6ppl - the contract I am in with BP(who they have just taken over) states that if the price rise is more than my contracted 2.5ppl increase, then I can terminate. Sadly, they are quoting another clause saying that they do not have to provide evidence that backs up the price rise and that tough luck - i am stuck with them until June 3013 - Calor have offered me 10.95 ppl cheaper - what can i do?
I'd have to dig back some through this thread, but basically, they are (in my opinion) on VERY thin ice there, a) because a court would REQUIRE them to provide evidence if you ever challenged it, and b) it is HIGHLY probable that the reason they won't provide the evidence is because they are taking liberties and seeing what they can get away with (a classic Flogas/DCC tactic - 99% of customers will shrug their shoulders and accept. The 1% awkward squad won't) - see price graphs posted earlier in this thread;
Personally, I would put something in writing to them stating that, until and unless they provide proof that the increase is linked to an accepted index (see here: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/consumer-enforcement/SKMBT.pdf), then you do NOT accept the price increase and that you intend to exercise your contractual right to cancel.
If Fleagas still insist in trying to con you, I would ensure that at the very least, the OFT, your local MP and (if you are a member, the Consumer Association (Which?)), are fully briefed on the situation.0 -
We have an underground tank, provided by Calor two years ago in NW Wales
Just looking on the UKLPG site, there are four suppliers - I've asked them all to quote ...
(all prices +vat)
Calor
48ppl - £95pa for the tank - prices fixed for 6 months
Flogas
44ppl - £60pa for the tank - prices fixed for 9 months
Cambrian
52ppl - £80pa for the tank
Avanti
'I'll get the rep to call you back' - but he hasn't done so!
We use about 2500L per year
I've read a lot of bad stuff about Flogas in the last 10 pages, but nobody really says why they are bad
Any thoughts as to what we should do?
Do we have to sign up for a 2 year contract?
:huh:0 -
Little_Anthony wrote: »......
I live just outside Wolverhampton (no mains gas and oil is not an option). Best deal so far is from a local company called Callowgas (£150 for installation of an underground tank, then 45 p per litre and £100 per year servicing).
Does anyone have any experience of this company or can suggest a better alternative....
Welcome to the forum.
Callow Gas was recommended by GrandadRob - here. He had had Flogas before - who had NEVER dropped their price in all the time he had been with them so when I posted the first price chart he was not happy (see here and the graph here). And that point answers, in part, J B's question about Flogas in the previous post. Of course the price charts are now more sophisticated thanks to HateLPG - and show Cardiff Gas and Extra Fuel's prices going up AND down as the wholesale price varies (e.g.here).
Maybe you could send GrandadRob a private message to see if his view on Callow has changed, please (the post above is from September 2011)? Maybe he'd post? Always good to hear about the independents.
BTW what were the other quotes you had, please? If you have lots of potential suppliers you could instal your own tank - though maybe people would be a bit cautious about owning an underground tank (some firms refuse to accept switches so maybe you'd have less choice of suppliers. Relevant post here.).
..0 -
We have an underground tank, provided by Calor two years ago in NW Wales
Just looking on the UKLPG site, there are four suppliers - I've asked them all to quote ...
(all prices +vat)
Calor
48ppl - £95pa for the tank - prices fixed for 6 months
Flogas
44ppl - £60pa for the tank - prices fixed for 9 months
Cambrian
52ppl - £80pa for the tank
Avanti
'I'll get the rep to call you back' - but he hasn't done so!
We use about 2500L per year
I've read a lot of bad stuff about Flogas in the last 10 pages, but nobody really says why they are bad
Any thoughts as to what we should do?
Do we have to sign up for a 2 year contract?
:huh:
Welcome to the forum.
UKLPG website only shows UKLPG members (listed here) - there are other suppliers (e.g. Extra Fuel) and you could buy your LPG through a farmers' supplier/co-op (e.g. Mole Valley - or see here).
Cambrian's price is more than Calor's and Flogas's. Cambrian's price seems to fit between Extra Fuel and Cardiff's prices on the graph here. All these three are independents. The majors tend to offer unbeatable initial prices - which the independents can't match - then increase their prices over the 2 yr contract. (Contracts cannot be longer than 2 yr since the Competition Commission ruling came into effect in 2009. A very few suppliers, e.g. Cardiff Gas and HBS, don't ask for a contract.)
No-one has commented on Cambrian (Cam Gas) on this forum, I believe. Lots have commented on Flogas - if you do a "Search this Thread" you'll find quite a few reasons why people are not happy with them. Here are some: prices never going down, not offering price rise guarantees (now dealt with by OFT - see here), filling the tank AFTER switching notice gone through, bluffing to get money for tank removal, not informing customers of price before filling (this comes under Unfair Trading Regs 2008 - see here), selective amnesia about phone agreements ....and this is off the top of my head. But you'll find criticism about other suppliers as well, though generally less about independents though this may be just because of number of posters on the forum.
..0 -
A tweeter called Lucibee used HateLPG's plot of wholesale prices and added the prices Calor had charged her - and here is the plot.0
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Calor
48ppl
...
Flogas
44ppl
...
Cambrian
52ppl
...
We use about 2500L per year
...
I've read a lot of bad stuff about Flogas in the last 10 pages, but nobody really says why they are bad
The Malvern Council scheme is probably a very good vector to indicate a "fair price" for "typical" users like yourself (i.e. about 2,500 litres per year). At present, they are quoting:
(see http://www.malvernhills.gov.uk/cms/communications/news/2013/january/steady-stream-for-lpg-scheme.aspx ). NOTE: There is a 3ppl surcharge for those using less than 2,500 litres per year. There appears to be no discount available for those using substantially more."The October price was 48.5 per litre but since then the price has come down to 46.72 in January."
I have no personal experience dealing with Flogas, but having followed the market closely for a number of years, I can say with hand on heart that I have never heard a good word said about them by anyone other than customers who have only just signed up on a "tasty apparently-cheapy" deal. And Flogas employees. There are, however, plenty of negative comments and scare stories posted on this thread and elsewhere. A bit of time with Google would be worthwhile. I would also suggest that you try to view (or find a transcript of) the program about Flogas in Winkleigh in the BBC "Don't Get Done, Get Dom" series. I could go on, but if you think prices potentially rising to the 70-80ppl bracket are acceptable, then maybe Flogas are worth a look.
It is worth noting that Flogas (and now MacGas, formerly BP LPG) are owned by the Irish company DCC, who are also dominant in the domestic fuel oil market. You may find quick "Googles" of 'DCC', 'Boiler Juice' and 'GB Oils' to be quite revealing. Remember, the Leopard doesn't change his spots.
As far as Calor are concerned, I have in the past had some contractual issues with them, but on the plus side (as I have said before) their technical and support services were excellent;
I also have some experience of Avanti. Before their takeover (i.e. when they were Shell) I would have said they were very good; Since Avanti took over, however, I feel that things have deteriorated somewhat in a number of areas.
When my contract renewal came up in 2012, I decided to ditch Avanti and to go to a small independent local supplier. There were a number of reasons for this decision: partly because the offer was good, partly because Avanti seemed to be going in the wrong direction and partly because I want to support an independent supplier on principle.
I firmly believe that the more people who move to independent suppliers, the better this will be for competition in the LPG sector as a whole - if even 5% of people renewing choose to go to independent local suppliers, it will change the market dynamic significantly. At present Calor, Flogas and Avanti between them control something like 90% of the total domestic bulk LPG market - Calor 50%; Flogas (inc MacGas) 30%; Avanti 10% (approx figures).
Personally? I would replace my entire heating system or freeze before signing anything with Flogas. Any other company at least stands a chance of being thrown into the mix. But that, of course, is only my personal opinion. YMMV
One other thing I would suggest, especially if you are signing with a small independent supplier, would be to negotiate (in practical terms, that probably just means "ask for") an additional contract clause that will automatically and totally release you from your contract in the event that your shiny new supplier is bought out any another company. Even if that happens, you may choose not to exercise that right, but it is a valuable protection in the event that a dodgy outfit buys your supplier.0 -
Personally? I would replace my entire heating system or freeze before signing anything with Flogas.
This made me chuckle as we essentially changed our entire heating system (switching from LPG to oil) to get away from Flogas! I'm a pretty chilled guy but Flogas were not good for the blood pressure!
Of course you are right that if enough folks switch to independents they (incl. the other big players) will start to get the message. But ultimately when companies have reached such a dominant position in the market it will take a lot to get them to see the error of their ways. Customer apathy is an issue too - obviously folks posting on these forums are pretty switched on but we'll be a small minority compared to the vast majority of folks out there who are just resigned to their supplier treating them badly.0 -
Under your pricing clause you probably have a chance to terminate in writing(prob has a timescale on it) which I would do while you challenge the other clause, because they can not ignore a letter, send it recorded so you can track it. Does the termination clause refer to other clause re justification? most contracts state that justification must be given for increases so they must give a reason, especially as they are breaking their pricing clause, tough luck is not an answer...dont agree anything verbally either get everything in writing otherwise you will find yourself tied into another contract0
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