Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

jeepjunkie wrote: »

It was verbal as I didn't understand the mechanics of LPG then. I fear they just told us what we needed to hear for us to sign...

Don't forget, a verbal contract or agreement should still be legally binding. The problem is getting proof of what was agreed and by whom.

I have seen LPG supply contracts that explicitly exclude any verbal agreements unless those agreements are detailed in writing, but I suspect that is not strictly legal (you would need a contract lawyer to confirm that point).

Notwithstanding the legality or otherwise of any such clause, this is a good opportunity to remind everyone to keep notes of all discussions and ALWAYS to back up all verbal agreements with a letter detailing your understanding of exactly what was agreed. At least if you misunderstood, it gives the supplier an opportunity to correct that and if they fail to respond or clarify, it cuts their "wriggle room" further down the line. (It is a good habit to do this for ALL verbal negotiations, but it is doubly important with some LPG suppliers as history has shown some of them to be far short of scrupulous!)

I hope this post will be of help to the increasing numbers of you who are having problems regarding tank siting. I would like to report some success in getting Flogas to provide a new tank and build 2 fire walls for my elderly neighbour, at absolutely no cost to herself (see post of 14/12/11) My neighbour did not have a contract with Flogas, who had hiked her price to just under 70ppl by the time I got involved. I would not say the process was easy, but if your tank has been "illegally" sited by your supplier, then you have a very good case for getting them to remedy the situation. You need to be persistent, complain at the most senior level of the organisation and document everything. Here's how I did it.

I sent a very polite email to the MD Henry Cubbon henry.cubbon@ flogas.co.uk, explaining the situation i.e. that my neighbour's tank had been wrongly sited by Flogas' predecessor and that it did not appear to conform to industry regulations. In her case, it was too close to her fence and a nearby tree (the tree is about 200 years old, so no chance that it had been planted after the tank was installed!). I stressed my concerns about the health and safety aspect of this, the fact that Flogas had been supplying my vulnerable neighbour for many years, etc and that I was sure that as a "responsible and community minded company" they would wish to remedy the situation. I also made it clear that I was copying the email to her local MP, the Office of Fair Trading sharon.dias@oft.gsi.gov.uk and the Department of Energy ps.charles.hendry@decc.gsi.gov.uk. I would probably now also include the Health and Safety Executive geoffrey.podger@hse.gov.uk.

Within a day or two I was emailed by someone who, I assume, worked directly for Henry Cubbon, and who put one of Flogas' service managers onto the problem. My key contact eventually, however, was a relatively senior manager on the engineering/technical side. A site visit was arranged at the back end of last year. Initially, Flogas said they could not fit any kind of tank into the space and that my neighbour would have to move to cylinders. However, after some further discussions, and persistence on my part, they agreed to remove the large tank and replace it with one which was half the size. They also agreed to erect 2 fire walls to ensure the safe distance specified in the industry regulations was adhered to.

Throughout the several months of negotiations on this, I ensured that all communication was in writing (email). Even when Flogas contacted me by phone, I followed up by confirming the conversation we had by email, so that there was no mistaking what had been agreed. I copied all communication about this into Henry Cubbon and the three members of the management team referred to above.

Finally, following the winter frost and bad weather, the tank and fire walls were eventually installed earlier this month, much to the relief of all concerned. I think Flogas were glad to see the back of us, knowing that they were, on this occasion, dealing with people who had some understanding of this market and the relevant rules and regulations. By this time, also, our local MP had written to me to say that he was prepared to take up my neighbour's case if there was not a satisfactory outcome and I was would certainly have taken him up on his offer.

In all my discussions with Flogas, I agreed to nothing in return. I stated that my neighbour would be willing to sign a contract with them, subject to a negotiation on price and a price cap in the contract (this was before the recent OFT announcement about price caps). No such discussion has taken place, which leaves my neighbour free to join my buying group (see previous posts) or to negotiate with Flogas as she sees fit. I doubt, however, if they will be able to match the 48ppl our buying group are currently paying.

I hope this is of use to those of you who may be in a similar situation.

Just spoken to Calor (Barclay 01926-318494). They have offered me 49.4ppl guranteed until Sept 2012. Tank rental at 24.57ppd. If the price rises more than 3.5ppl per quarter, there's a get out clause. That's it so far.
Looking like Calor, unless anyone cam suggest anything better?

ironnick wrote: »

Just spoken to Calor ... If the price rises more than 3.5ppl per quarter, there's a get out clause....

Which is pretty steep - that's zero protection for 14ppl per year (28ppl over the life of the contract) in increases!

Calor were quick to cotton on to this ppl/quarter ruse and were offering 3ppl/3 months when others were typically quoting in "ppl/six months". So, when looking at any such "protection" make sure you look at the period as well as the price. Also, seek written confirmation from any new supplier that if wholesale prices fall, reductions in cost will be passed on as swiftly as increases.

Remember, at present, the OFT is our friend on such things and is still watching LPG pricing quite closely to see if the suppliers are going to start behaving themselves following the voluntary agreements!

The_Hornet wrote: »

<snip>

Checked first with Cardiff Gas and they currently quote 47ppl but the gentleman I spoke to said that's likely to come down next week (!) possibly to 45ppl.

Next spoke to Countrywide who quoted 51.5ppl. When confronted with Cardiff's price they said they would pass it to their contracts manager who would call me back within 48hrs.

<snip>

ironnick wrote: »

<snip>

ExtraGas has quoted me the following:
<snip>
We operate in a slightly different way than other LPG companies, we have one price in the top left corner of our website (50.51p pl) (www.extrafuel.co.uk) and the price tracks the market place.

I have attached below some detail of previous months to give you an idea.
<snip>

RoseGas quotes the following

<snip> The present price for LPG will be 48pence per litre + VAT. We do monitor gas prices so that our prices go down as well as up. <snip>

HateLPG wrote: »

<snip>
Also, seek written confirmation from any new supplier that if wholesale prices fall, reductions in cost will be passed on as swiftly as increases.

<snip>

What would be very useful to everyone on here (and of course particularly to ironnick and The Hornet!) would be the history of the prices charged by Rose Gas and Cardiff Gas. Extra Fuel sent ironnick their prices for previous months - and I've also jotted them down and they are posted on this forum plotted against wholesale prices (here, automatically updated each month thanks to HateLPG's technowizardry). Any chance of you getting this info for Rose Gas and Cardiff Gas, and posting it, please, ironnick and The Hornet?

We know the major suppliers will usually make an initial offer which undercuts the independents ... secure in the knowledge that they can raise prices over the 2 years (with a woffly 'justification'). Countrywide may be an independent (despite its tie-up with Flogas) but we've seen that its business methods are little different to Calor and Flogas as regards very different prices for different customers, price rises but not price falls, etc.

PS Price falls? Yes, when I posted on April 5th Carver Gases price was 54.0 (here), then it dropped to 52.5, then 52.2 and currently it's 52.1. So - as Cardiff Gas has said - prices are FALLING. So all you people with Calor, Flogas, BP, Avanti (and Countrywide!) expect GOOD news to fall through your letterboxes some time soon! (But maybe watch out for falling pigs too!).
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