Bulk LPG - Cheapest suppliers / supply route?

daltone wrote: »

Just got the latest rise in from BP LPG... and now they want to jack it up again to 64.45 ... but will generously knock off 1.5ppl if we sign up for another 2 years...

Time to shop around methinks!

Welcome to the forum!

64.45 less 1.5 ppl seems rather high for a starting price! Especially as Extra Fuel is currently quoting 52.49 ppl and Carver Gases 53.2 ppl. In my experience of BP the price only went down once in 19 years! Extra Fuel posts a price on their website and charges the same price for everyone throughout Great Britain. Recently their business model of charging customers a price fixed for each calendar month, made up of the wholesale price plus their costs and profit has been - temporarily - abandoned (see notice on their website) because of excessive wholesale price volatility. I don't know when Carver change their posted price - but they only supply locally around Wolverhampton. Lister Gases have kept their posted price of 50 ppl for the last 35 days (see this post). They supply the West Midlands. LPGas Wales Direct - a Calor company - has 51.5 ppl on their website.

Lots of useful info in HateLPG's posts - #931 is a useful link to start with. Also I'd suggest you read (you probably have done already!) the posts by DAVID T. - he works for an independent LPG supplier, I believe.

Good luck - and please keep us posted.

[And please support our efforts to get Martin Lewis backing our efforts to get the LPG 'market' looked at by adding your thanks to voisin's post - and, if you've time, please tell the Office of Fair Trading of your experience - and BP's very generous introductory offer! And of the contract they'll have offered you. Info re the OFT off-grid energy study is in frankie's post. Submissions have to be received by 27th May.]

x-x wrote: »

Would someone please check my calculation

Price of LPG is say 52p/l
LPG is 6.6KWh/ltr
above figure taken from biomassenergycentre.org.uk
If I use 3000ltr of LPG it will cost me £1560 and I will get 19800KWh
As I have an old boiler at 60% efficiency I therefore only get 11880KWh

Electricity is 8.451p/KWh (taken from British Gas Websaver 11) so 11880KWh would cost £1003

Is electricity now cheaper than LPG or have I made an error in my calculation. Even with a boiler at 90% efficiency electricity would be cheaper.

Energy density / cost comparisons are frequently mentioned on LPG (and Oil) threads, and often lead to heated discussion and argument, so rather than embarking on a detailed critique of your calculations, I will make the following more general observations.

Finding reliable kWh/l figures for LPG is not easy - the Carbon Trust, for example, quote 7.08 kWh/l (http://www.carbontrust.co.uk/cut-carbon-reduce-costs/calculate/carbon-footprinting/pages/conversion-factors.aspx) - in the right ball park, but significantly different.

Also, you are making the assumption that your electric heating would be 100% efficient! Sure, it can be quite efficient, but that depends on exactly what form of heating you plan to use (let's not have a long off-topic discussion here on exactly how efficient or otherwise different types of electric heating can be - I'm sure that has been discussed ad infinitum on other forum threads ).

Another thing to bear in mind is that that electricity prices too are affected by global oil and gas prices so as those increase, so will the cost of electricity. It is interesting to note that in just the last few weeks, several long-term fixed-rate tariffs have been withdrawn and there is talk of further electricity price increases coming as soon as May, with bigger rises expected in November (see http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/utilities/2011/04/energy-prices-could-rise-in-may), so that is something else to throw into the equation.

Furthermore, whether or not we have yet reached (or passed) the point of "peak oil" is another hot topic of conversation where opinion is sharply divided, but I think it is fair to say that over the next 25 years or so, the price of fossil fuels (and therefore of derived energies) is only likely to move in one direction - upwards - and quite steeply at that. How much that will affect electricity prices is yet to be seen and will depend to a great extent on what other generation methods are invested in and how quickly they can come on-stream.

If you are looking to change your boiler / heating system anyway and have the right kind of property, then rather than considering using electric heating per se, your best bet is probably to take a long hard look at Ground or Air Source Heat pumps. These are not suitable for all properties, so you will need to do your homework and take some professional and reliable advice. There is some good discussion within the MSE forums to get you started, but remember, that is often people's opinion and you have no comeback if they have posted something misleading or incorrect.

Another thing to consider (again, dependent on your property) is whether you could install Solar Photo Voltaic (Solar PV) panels. These generate electricity (rather than the older solar panels that just heated water). You use the electricity generated and you can now sell anything left over back into the grid using the new Feed In Tariffs (for example, if you fit Solar PV to an existing property, the Feed In Tariff, fixed for 25 years and linked to RPI, could be as much as 43.3p per kW/h - see http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Sell-your-own-energy/Feed-in-Tariff-scheme). There are also some companies offering deals whereby they fit and maintain the Solar PV panels at no cost to the consumer, allowing the consumer to use the electricity generated, but where the company benefits from the Feed In Tariff for all electricity the consumer doesn't use. In such cases, this is usually a fixed-term deal for 25 years, after which ownership of and all responsibility for the panels is transferred to the consumer who can then benefit from any subsequent "free" electricity generated (but will not benefit from any "Feed In Tariff" as that expires after 25 years) - effectively, the company is "renting" your roofspace on the basis that the income from the electricity fed back into the grid will cover all their costs and then make them a nice tidy profit on top, which gives a good indication of the potential long-term economics of such systems - see http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/aug/14/free-solar-panels.

If you can afford the initial capital outlay (or can get some kind of grant) and have the right kind of property, then Solar PV linked with a Ground or Air Source Heat Pump will probably offer you the best and most effective and efficient long-term heating solution.

Hope this helps!

In a car LPG is about 80% the calorific or energy value of petrol, which means the mpg also is 20% worse. This might explain how normal electricity could cost less if lpg price has risen alot especially if your boiler is adding to that loss

Bruce_GT3 wrote: »

So the guy from Shell has been out. Apparently the tank needs to be repositioned, as it is underneath power lines; to which I asked "Why was it placed there to begin with?". Can anyone advise who pays for the reposition; me, Shell or should Calor pay for it?

Additionally, I have not yet written to Calor to tell them I wish to terminate my contract due to their price rise. If I don't tell them within 30 days, is that then implicit that I am willing to accept them?

There is around 400 litres of LPG in the tank. Do I need to pay Calor for that when I transfer? Or do Shell "buy" the gas and then charge me for it?

TIA,
Bruce

Let me tell you about my recent experiences.

I live in a small Hampshire village and had LPG now since 1983. Firstly with a local company, who were then bought out by Calor in 1996. Calor decided to replace my 2000 litre tank at that time. The tank had been sited directly below an 11kV power line by the original company, but Calor saw no reason to relocate it.

This situation continued until the freedom to change supplier occurred in 2009, when I was then permitted to shop around for my LPG. All of the prospective suppliers who came to do a survey said that they couldn’t supply me because of the power line. I went back to Calor and said that they were preventing me taking advantage of the new legislation because of the tank location.

Eventually I shamed them into providing a new tank in an acceptable location. They even moled in the pipe to the house. I just had to provide the concrete base. I also negotiated a reduction from 52p to 38p per litre and £200 of free gas, in return for signing a new two year contract (in August 2010). The contract had the standard Calor clause that I could cancel if they increased the price by more that 3.5ppl in any six month period.

Of course, the price then slowly started to creep up. Back in March I received a letter informing me of a 4ppl increase. I contacted them and pointed out the 3.5ppl clause in the contract. They said that if I didn’t like it I could cancel the contract, as they were not willing to back down. This I duly did and shopped around for a new supplier. This time, of course, I had a nice new tank sited in the correct location.

I have eventually chosen a local supplier (their depot is in the next village!) who is charging me 46ppl, NO tank rental and NO contract, so I’m free to move again if his price rises become excessive.

LittleVermin wrote: »

Wow! Please tell us the name of this firm.

A really useful post - many thanks, Mister G!

The firm is HBS in Chilbolton. They also deliver oil.

Unfortunately, I believe that they only cover a 20 mile radius.