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    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 12th Dec 19, 6:44 PM
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    GreatApe
    BEV emmissions
    • #1
    • 12th Dec 19, 6:44 PM
    BEV emmissions 12th Dec 19 at 6:44 PM
    Was asked in another thread so here you go full info with more data and less assumptions with the BEVs charged by CCGTs

    Model 3 = 95g/KM*
    E Golf = 107g/KM (a less efficient BEV which uses more electricity)
    Hybrid Corrolla or Prius = 106g/km (real world users reporting 63mpg = 106g/km)

    So even an efficient BEV only saves about 10g/km over a hybrid
    And this is in a gas marginal grid. In a coal marginal grid the BEV is far worse Vs the hybrid

    Calculations below willing to amend if you feel the assumptions or calculations are wrong
Page 7
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 13th Jan 20, 7:29 AM
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    Martyn1981
    Nothing new, but perhaps worth repeating the simple points to help hammer them home for the hard of thinking:

    Is It True That A Tesla Creates More Pollution Than A Conventional Car?

    This question gets asked a lot: “Is it true that a Tesla creates more pollution than a conventional car?” It is often asked without any real interest in the answer, but more as a statement that this might be a possibility. It is part of the propaganda against electric vehicles (EVs), and all things green in general. The question is like a fishing expedition: The hook is cast. The intended catch is negative thoughts in people’s minds, and hundreds of negative answers by all those antagonistic to EVs and any measures to combat climate change.
    We need to move electricity generation to 100% renewables, and also move to all-electric homes and transport. Considerations of what advantages might or might not exist in the interim are not particularly relevant. We just need to get there as soon as possible. Most nations are moving away from coal, are using less polluting and more efficient gas in the interim, and are building renewable energy plants at a steady rate. Even if it wasn’t an entirely fallacious argument that all the pollution is moved from the tailpipe to the smoke stack, the solution would be to stop generating electricity from dirty coal (and no, there is no such thing as “clean” coal) for transportation.

    All ICE vehicles need to be taken off the road and replaced by electric as soon as possible.

    All fossil-fuelled power stations need to be replaced by a new generation from renewable energy very soon.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 13th Jan 20, 1:51 PM
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    GreatApe
    We need to move electricity generation to 100% renewables, and also move to all-electric homes and transport
    We don't need to, it's just a mild desire and only if it doesn't harm us economically too much

    Considerations of what advantages might or might not exist in the interim are not particularly relevant.
    This is ridiculous. BEVs have too many vested interests mostly those who own shares in a particular company....

    Let's take heating since you mentioned that
    Is electrify at all cost a good idea
    What if a house goes from a gas boiler to resistance heaters?
    Is that a good move after all your thesis is electrify everything now
    Well no it's a terrible idea you go from 90% efficient gas fired boiler
    To 45% efficient gas power station to electricity in your socket
    You've doubles emmissions

    We just need to get there as soon as possible
    No we don't
    Don't confuse your own desires and wants with societies needs

    Most nations are moving away from coal, are using less polluting and more efficient gas in the interim, and are building renewable energy plants at a steady rate.
    Coal is still #1 global fuel for electricity
    The biggest electricity consumer and the biggest car market , aka China is almost all marginal coal generation

    Even if it wasn’t an entirely fallacious argument that all the pollution is moved from the tailpipe to the smoke stack, the solution would be to stop generating electricity from dirty coal (and no, there is no such thing as “clean” coal) for transportation
    .

    But we live in reality not fantasy so need to work with what we got and what is likely

    And the reality is that in most the big car markets of the world an efficient ICE (hybrids) is lower emmissions over the lifetime of a car

    All ICE vehicles need to be taken off the road and replaced by electric as soon as possible.
    No they don't
    The mild desire is for a steady fall in emmissions and only if this can be done economically

    The mild desire can be met in incremental steps
    ICE to Mild Hybrids to Full hybrids to plug in vehicle and finally if economic full EVs
    Or even by design changes like getting rid of wing mirrors or making cars more aerodynamic

    The EU target for 2021 is 95g/km this can be met with mild hybrids

    Even non hybrid like the Ford Focus 1.0 ecoboost £18,000 is 97g/km so just 2 grams above the 2021 target. They can pay the €95/gram fine = €190 or put in mild hybrid technology (which supposedly cuts emmissions 5-10%)

    So don't confuse your fundamentalist views of zero carbon now
    The reality is a mild desire to reduce emmissions slowly over 30 years
    This can be achieved without having to jump straight to EVs

    All fossil-fuelled power stations need to be replaced by a new generation from renewable energy very soon.
    If by very soon you mean over the next 30-50 years you are correct
    If you mean over the next 3-5 years your are dreaming

    This is why the EV or efficient ICE debate matters

    If you do a fair accounting an EV of ant brand is worse than an efficient ICE in a place like China or any local grid which is marginal coal. And marginal gas grids it's better to use the funds for technology that actually reduces emmissions significantly rather than a tiny bit

    £3500 subsidy so rich folk can buy £40-100k BEVs
    Why not just gift a social tenant a free PV panel lot instead?
    It will last 2-3x longer than the car and save 5x the emmissions
    And put savings in the pocket of a council tenant rather than someone who is in the top 1-5% of society
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 13th Jan 20, 2:39 PM
    • 375 Posts
    • 639 Thanks
    pile-o-stone
    Was asked in another thread so here you go full info with more data and less assumptions with the BEVs charged by CCGTs

    Model 3 = 95g/KM*
    E Golf = 107g/KM (a less efficient BEV which uses more electricity)
    Hybrid Corrolla or Prius = 106g/km (real world users reporting 63mpg = 106g/km)

    So even an efficient BEV only saves about 10g/km over a hybrid
    And this is in a gas marginal grid. In a coal marginal grid the BEV is far worse Vs the hybrid

    Calculations below willing to amend if you feel the assumptions or calculations are wrong
    Originally posted by GreatApe
    I'm new to this thread and also to electric vehicles, for the most part. I had no idea that electric vehicles had to be charged by electricity generated only by Combined Cycle Gas Turbines!

    This is a disgrace! Why haven't those fat cats in City Hall told us this fact??!!!

    How does this even work? UK electricity generation is a mix of different technologies, 30% of which comes from renewables. I'm assuming that the BEV chargers must have some sort of device that filters out electricity generated from non CCGT sources?

    As more offshore windfarms and other renewables come online, will this put a increasing strain on the CCGT filters?

    Even worse, if my solar panels generating a surplus of power, i.e. exporting to the grid, does this mean my electric vehicle would stop charging because there is zero CCGT generation getting to the charger?

    I'm glad I stumbled across this thread and its incredibly useful information!
    Last edited by pile-o-stone; 13-01-2020 at 2:53 PM.
    5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
    Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
    Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
    Mini orchard planted and vegetable allotment created.
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 13th Jan 20, 2:52 PM
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    pile-o-stone
    I also like the silly idea that 'my BEV is solar powered' it's as accurate as those who claim their electricity is nuclear powered because there is a nuke ten miles away.

    The distance of the power station doesn't matter if it's on your roof or ten miles away or a hundred miles away electromagnetism moves at the speed of light. A BEV is marginal load and is charged by marginal supply on that grid irrespective of a nuke or PV panels being closer than the marginal CCGT
    Originally posted by GreatApe
    So on a sunny day where I'm exporting electricity to the grid from my solar panels, my household appliances are actually running off marginal CCGT?

    What con! Again, why are we, the public, not told these important things? I bought solar panels to try and reduce my electricity bills by using self-generated energy and now I find that this isn't true!!

    Saying that, my electricity bill has reduced, so perhaps 'the establishment' are fixing my bills so that I don't realise the truth that even though my smart meter says I'm exporting electricity, I'm actually really importing CCGT electricity from the grid. Ohh, they're so sneaky!!

    What next? My rainwater butt is really full of mains tap water, put there at night by undercover waterboard officials!
    5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
    Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
    Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
    Mini orchard planted and vegetable allotment created.
    • almillar
    • By almillar 13th Jan 20, 3:29 PM
    • 8,325 Posts
    • 3,519 Thanks
    almillar
    There needs to be a way to charge the cars evenly over night rather than them all pulling max power at the same time. But I don't think smart internet chargers are a good idea they introduce a way to crash the grid if someone hacks the chargers which will eventually happen

    Perhaps simply limiting charger speeds to 1KW would be a solution
    BMW i3 for one can limit charging speed. If I wanted to, I could use my 3-pin charger (2kW) instead of my 7kW charger. 'Problem' solved. I'm in NI so I don't get the wonderful range of tariffs that GB does, but EV drivers are already incentivised to charge 'overnight' with various definitions of what that is. There isn't a problem, yet, and as the numbers grow, so will the grid adapt to it.

    Anyway, people that are actually paid to run the grid seem to be on it so I'll not worry about it. How many 'Coronation Street ad break kettles' does it need to be, to be a problem?! Millions of 2kW kettles switching on, on top of early evening demands.
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 13th Jan 20, 3:34 PM
    • 2,820 Posts
    • 4,272 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    Now, now pile-o-stone, you know what they say about sarcasm..


    A more apposite saying in these circumstances would be "using a sledgehammer to crack a nut".
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 13th Jan 20, 4:29 PM
    • 4,397 Posts
    • 3,089 Thanks
    GreatApe
    So on a sunny day where I'm exporting electricity to the grid from my solar panels, my household appliances are actually running off marginal CCGT?
    Originally posted by pile-o-stone
    Marginal load adds to marginal demand

    ]What con! Again, why are we, the public, not told these important things?
    Because they don't care and half the public have 100IQ or lower

    I bought solar panels to try and reduce my electricity bills by using self-generated energy and now I find that this isn't true!!
    That's not what I said

    Saying that, my electricity bill has reduced, so perhaps 'the establishment' are fixing my bills so that I don't realise the truth that even though my smart meter says I'm exporting electricity, I'm actually really importing CCGT electricity from the grid. Ohh, they're so sneaky!!
    You don't even know what electricity is
    The proximity to the power source isn't relevent since electric fields travel at close to the speed of light

    What next? My rainwater butt is really full of mains tap water, put there at night by undercover waterboard officials!
    No it's the local unicorns that use it as a uranial and fill it up for you
    Last edited by GreatApe; 13-01-2020 at 4:31 PM.
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 13th Jan 20, 4:39 PM
    • 4,397 Posts
    • 3,089 Thanks
    GreatApe
    I'm new to this thread and also to electric vehicles, for the most part. I had no idea that electric vehicles had to be charged by electricity generated only by Combined Cycle Gas Turbines!
    Originally posted by pile-o-stone
    That's not what I said

    This is a disgrace! Why haven't those fat cats in City Hall told us this fact??!!!
    Probably because they only know about as much as you

    How does this even work? UK electricity generation is a mix of different technologies, 30% of which comes from renewables. I'm assuming that the BEV chargers must have some sort of device that filters out electricity generated from non CCGT sources?
    If I add a new power source, say a nuke or a wind farm, is this new source of energy displacing the average UK mix of electricity or CCGT generation?

    If I add a new load source, say an EV or kettle, is this new source of demand firing up average UK mix or CCGT generation?
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 13th Jan 20, 4:47 PM
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    GreatApe
    How does electricity work

    Let's imagine a grid with just gas fired power stations nothing else

    When you turn on your kettle how does the grid know to add more gas and generate more electricity? The frequency of the grid falls instantly by a small amount and the generators react to this instantly via the laws of physics and a few seconds later a CCGT adds more gas and generates 3KW more electricity...makes sense

    Now imagine a more complex grid with wind farms solar panels CCGTs Coal Plants and Nukes

    When you plug a Tesla into a supercharger and draw 250KW of power what happens?
    The frequency of the grid falls instantly and the grid has a few options to respond

    Add 250KW more wind to a wind turbine
    Add 250KW more sunshine to a solar panel
    Add 250KW more uranium fission
    Add 250KW more coal to a coal plant
    Add 250KW more gas to a gas plant

    So which one do we do?
    We don't control the sun or the wind so that's out
    We run our nukes at max where possible so can't add more output of nuclear
    We in the UK will soon close the coal plants
    So What option are you left with? The CCGTs

    Plug in the Tesla and draw 250KW of power and a gas plant has to produce 250KW more electricity to feed into the grid

    Marginal load...is met by marginal production
    • almillar
    • By almillar 14th Jan 20, 1:11 PM
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    • 3,519 Thanks
    almillar
    I'm new to this thread and also to electric vehicles, for the most part. I had no idea that electric vehicles had to be charged by electricity generated only by Combined Cycle Gas Turbines!
    That's not what I said
    You were damn close.
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 14th Jan 20, 1:17 PM
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    • 3,089 Thanks
    GreatApe
    You were damn close.
    Originally posted by almillar

    No

    I said marginal demand is met by marginal loads
    Which in the UK happens to be CCGT the vast majority of the time

    It would be, most of the time, nuclear in France, hydropower in Norway, coal in China
    All three of which I highlighted multiple times
    But of course where the confirmation bias is strong you only see the bits you want to see
    • almillar
    • By almillar 14th Jan 20, 2:36 PM
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    almillar
    But of course where the confirmation bias is strong you only see the bits you want to see

    What is 'the confirmation bias' you're talking about?
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 14th Jan 20, 2:47 PM
    • 375 Posts
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    pile-o-stone
    You were damn close.
    Originally posted by almillar
    GA is basically saying that whenever you plug something into an electrical socket, it only uses CCGT electricity because the grid has to ramp up to supply the electricity andonly CCGT sources can do that. So despite the UK electricity supply having a mix of generation, only CCGT is actually used when something is plugged in.

    It seems that while electricity moves at the speed of light, CCGT electricity is faster and so only this is actually used. Also, it seems that people are daft in thinking they are using their own solar powered electricity or nuclear energy if they live near a reactor to charge their car because electricity doesn't work like that, yet they're not daft if they think all of their electricity comes from CCGT if they live next door to a CCGT plant.

    I'm glad we have GA here to clear all this up for us.
    5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
    Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
    Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
    Mini orchard planted and vegetable allotment created.
    • ed110220
    • By ed110220 14th Jan 20, 8:53 PM
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    ed110220
    Here's an interesting article about marginal emissions, when to use the theory and more importantly when not to, as it is often abused by charlatans.

    Basically marginal emissions are "short-lived and volatile, so while they are useful for short-term scheduling of flexible loads, they are not a good fit for evaluating longer-term changes... So it wouldn’t make sense to use marginal emissions to talk about carbon footprints or to talk about the impact of a new appliance. In fact, I struggle to find many good applications for marginal emissions beyond load shifting"

    When to use Marginal Emissions (and when not to) by Sherry Listgarten
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 14th Jan 20, 11:12 PM
    • 4,397 Posts
    • 3,089 Thanks
    GreatApe
    Here's an interesting article about marginal emissions, when to use the theory and more importantly when not to, as it is often abused by charlatans.

    Basically marginal emissions are "short-lived and volatile, so while they are useful for short-term scheduling of flexible loads, they are not a good fit for evaluating longer-term changes... So it wouldn’t make sense to use marginal emissions to talk about carbon footprints or to talk about the impact of a new appliance. In fact, I struggle to find many good applications for marginal emissions beyond load shifting"

    When to use Marginal Emissions (and when not to) by Sherry Listgarten
    Originally posted by ed110220


    What a waste of time
    She says absolutely nothing more than 'some people think X I think Y'

    She is also wrong in that marginal emmissions are not short lived
    Her example of peaker plant is disingenuous or ignorance because that would only be true in a grid that was 100% clean most of the time and only firing up a gas peaker some of the time

    Such grids are extremely rare the norm is like the UK or Germany or Chinese grid where marginal emmissions are from either coal or gas the majority of the time so they are not short lived at all in fact Germany will be marginal gas/coal/lignite for at least another 10-20 years
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 15th Jan 20, 7:52 AM
    • 10,050 Posts
    • 15,256 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    Here's an interesting article about marginal emissions, when to use the theory and more importantly when not to, as it is often abused by charlatans.
    Originally posted by ed110220
    Logically, I think we should just look to trends. With the UK shifting leccy generation to RE at about 3%pa, and BEV cars adding about ~10%net over perhaps 25yrs (0.4%pa), then anyway you try to 'play' it BEV's are cleaner and greener, and ever more so as we move forwards.

    The spin and tricks from the FF desperado's will never end, so it's really down to the logical masses to dismiss and ignore them.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • Martyn1981
    • By Martyn1981 15th Jan 20, 8:12 AM
    • 10,050 Posts
    • 15,256 Thanks
    Martyn1981
    This article could be posted in the main G&E energy thread, but as LA/Cali is moving to greener generation, but has a massive transport 'problem' I wonder if it's better placed here (also reminds me of the similar argument in an older article that showed school performance reductions for those kids travelling in on the diesel school buses):

    Air Filters Used In LA Schools Linked To Higher Test Scores

    Air pollution is a very serious threat to human health. Each year, hundreds of thousands of premature deaths are linked to this global problem. Various illnesses result as well. Another problem, but one that typically receives less attention, is cognitive decline. A number of research studies have come out in recent years documenting this link. It’s very obvious, if not extremely so, that intelligence is central to human functioning at all levels of human societies.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 15th Jan 20, 9:08 AM
    • 375 Posts
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    pile-o-stone
    Her example of peaker plant is disingenuous or ignorance because that would only be true in a grid that was 100% clean most of the time and only firing up a gas peaker some of the time
    Originally posted by GreatApe
    Lol, as I said, Comedy Gold!!!

    GA argues that this blogger is being disingenuous and ignorant because her claims are only true if a grid is 100% renewables, in order to defend his own claims on EV emissions based on a grid that is 100% fossil fuel (CCGT).

    You could not make it up. His lack of irony and self-awareness is delicious.

    This is right up there with his 'nuclear powered central heating' and 'cheaper to have high speed cars in hundred mile long tunnels than high speed rail' statements.
    5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
    Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
    Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
    Mini orchard planted and vegetable allotment created.
    • GreatApe
    • By GreatApe 15th Jan 20, 2:16 PM
    • 4,397 Posts
    • 3,089 Thanks
    GreatApe
    Lol, as I said, Comedy Gold!!!

    GA argues that this blogger is being disingenuous and ignorant because her claims are only true if a grid is 100% renewables, in order to defend his own claims on EV emissions based on a grid that is 100% fossil fuel (CCGT).

    You could not make it up. His lack of irony and self-awareness is delicious.

    This is right up there with his 'nuclear powered central heating' and 'cheaper to have high speed cars in hundred mile long tunnels than high speed rail' statements.
    Originally posted by pile-o-stone

    Nice to know you're stalking my every post

    By comparison I don't recall anything you've ever posted it was that interesting
    • pile-o-stone
    • By pile-o-stone 15th Jan 20, 3:06 PM
    • 375 Posts
    • 639 Thanks
    pile-o-stone
    Nice to know you're stalking my every post
    Originally posted by GreatApe
    You're posting on a public forum and complaining that people are responding to your posts?

    Interesting that you seem able to respond to Mart an awful lot, but cry foul if people respond to yourself. A case of being able to dish it out but not take it?
    5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
    Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
    Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
    Mini orchard planted and vegetable allotment created.
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