New Post Advanced Search
Important update! We have recently reviewed and updated our Forum Rules and FAQs. Please take the time to familiarise yourself with the latest version.

BEV emmissions

edited 30 November -1 at 12:00AM in Green & Ethical MoneySaving
166 replies 5.7K views
145791017

Replies

  • Martyn1981Martyn1981 Forumite
    11.5K posts
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Purely hypothetical, but imagine if we had BEV's today, and someone invented the ICE and suggested we use it for our road transport, with an exhaust pipe discharging carp ..... I wonder what we would say?

    Just being a bit silly, but also applying Z's test of 'take the argument to the extreme' to see it from different angles.

    We are where we are, but it takes an awful lot of effort to try to defend the status quo, or to expand HEV/PHEV's beyond a transitional role, but I've always admired the incredible creativity of those that wish to stand in the way of progress, if only they'd put their brainpower towards good causes.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW)

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • GreatApeGreatApe
    4.5K posts
    ✭✭✭✭
    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Purely hypothetical, but imagine if we had BEV's today, and someone invented the ICE and suggested we use it for our road transport, with an exhaust pipe discharging carp ..... I wonder what we would say?


    Your universe isn't feasible because BEVs only work by using ICE down the line on the grid

    So if ICE don't exist nor do BEVs
  • GreatApeGreatApe
    4.5K posts
    ✭✭✭✭
    almillar wrote: »
    lots of stuff


    If I give you one litre of petrol you have two choices, use this one litre in a ICE or use this one litre of petrol to generate electricity to charge your EV and then drive the EV with that charge

    What distance does each car get from this one litre of petrol?

    Your answer will show how efficient one is compared to the other
  • almillaralmillar Forumite
    8.6K posts
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    ✭✭✭✭
    What distance does each car get from this one litre of petrol?


    You answered your own question above:
    1 litre of petrol in a hybrid = 21.8km
    1 litre petrol into a CCGT power station into a Zoe @ 3.7m/kWh = 22.2km
    1 litre of petrol into a coal station into a Zoe @ 3.7m/kWh = 17.3km


    And I can't argue against it. But you have again ignored the RE, and future RE, that will be on the grid. An ice will always be 100% FF (do we count 'biodiesel'?), an EV allows us to move on.


    Petrol is extremely energy dense, more energy dense than any batteries we have. It's great! I love it! Unfortunately it turns out digging stuff out of the ground, refining it, and burning it again, isn't great for the environment. And it's also running out. When we, the consumer, run our cars on electric, it allows us to move away from fossil fuels. We can install our own RE supply at home, and our great leaders can fund RE at a big, grid level.

    Your answer will show how efficient one is compared to the other


    I'm comparing an ICE to an electric motor, with Li-Ion battery. Your fuel source for the ICE is petrol or diesel, the fuel source for the EV (to make the electric) can be many different things. You've chosen petrol in a CCGT. We might be stuck with a lot of fossil fuel on the grid at the moment, but my point stands:
    'EVs are already cleaner than ICE, and only getting cleaner'.
  • GreatApeGreatApe
    4.5K posts
    ✭✭✭✭
    almillar wrote: »
    And I can't argue against it.

    You miss the point that I was making by comparing 1 litre of petrol in an ICE or in a BEV I am highlighting their true efficiency. There is a general misconception that BEVs are massively more efficient. This 1 litre petrol example highlights that this is incorrect that both an efficient ICE and an efficient BEV are very close to each other so close you can say they are the same (there is less than a 2% difference)
    But you have again ignored the RE

    It was about efficiency not emmissions or renewables
    and future RE, that will be on the grid. An ice will always be 100% FF (do we count 'biodiesel'?), an EV allows us to move on.

    The world's grid is primarily powered by coal it is the #1 source of electricity well ahead of #2, coal produces more emmissions powering a BEV than using an efficient ICE

    Despite all the propaganda 2018 coal burn for electricity was the highest ever.

    Re the future. Maybe but it ain't happening for the next 10 years and in most the word it's going to be worse for this period Vs a hybrid

    BTW a short range hybrid with a +2KWh battery and a 500Wp solar roof would be as much as 50% solar in a sunny country and most people live in sunny locations.

    So a hybrid Toyota could go from 106g/km to 60g/km with a small change and no need to connect to the grid which is worldwide mostly powered by coal
    Petrol is extremely energy dense, more energy dense than any batteries we have. It's great! I love it! Unfortunately it turns out digging stuff out of the ground, refining it, and burning it again, isn't great for the environment. And it's also running out.

    It's not all that bad for the environment and what matters is do we have enough for the next 30 years and the answer is definitely yes
    When we, the consumer, run our cars on electric, it allows us to move away from fossil fuels. We can install our own RE supply at home, and our great leaders can fund RE at a big, grid level.

    Renewables are slow they take years and decades
    Do you know that 2018 the most recent year for data that grid electricity produced by coal and gas went up?

    I'm all for economic deployment of wind and solar
    But what is being deployed worldwide isn't even sufficient to meet the increase in demand let alone chip away at what is used

    So while your argument isn't false or wrong it's certainly wrong for the next decade or two

    I'm comparing an ICE to an electric motor, with Li-Ion battery. Your fuel source for the ICE is petrol or diesel, the fuel source for the EV (to make the electric) can be many different things. You've chosen petrol in a CCGT. We might be stuck with a lot of fossil fuel on the grid at the moment, but my point stands:
    'EVs are already cleaner than ICE, and only getting cleaner'.

    No your point is, EV are already marginally cleaner than ICE in the few locations CCGTs dominate over Coal and that they will get about 3% cleaner over the next decade.

    For the other 90% of countries (by population) where coal dominates then BEVs are worse for emmissions and will still be worse in a decades time


    BEVs are okay post 2035-40 when grids clean up
    For now hybrids win for low emmissions in most of the world's big markets
    A few small places like the UK or Norway BEVs are already marginally lower emmissions (ignoring up front emmissions)
  • almillaralmillar Forumite
    8.6K posts
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    ✭✭✭✭
    There is a general misconception that BEVs are massively more efficient.
    Disagree, not a misconception.
    I'm talking about the electric motor, versus the internal combustion engine. You're choosing inefficient ways to make electricity, the worst case scenario, to fuel the EV motor, whilst choosing best case ICE. And even then, by your own numbers, EV is more efficient!
    My EV does 3.8 miles on a kWh. You'll bang on about all the losses that occur, but many of them need not occur. The situation can be improved with, for example, solar panels and a battery in my home. My BEV will be massively more efficient than an ICE, which throws more than half the energy away, and that's energy that has had to be dug up, refined and transported to a petrol station.
    It was about efficiency not emmissions or renewables


    I was talking about the motor being carried around in the vehicle, not the power station. The electric motor is vastly more efficient than the ICE. Let's carry that around with us, instead of lots of tiny ICEs. Let's also sort out the efficiency of electric production, including, but not limited to, RE.


    To be clear, I'll repeat. Petrol is an extremely energy dense and efficient storage of energy. More dense than any EV battery can hope to be any time soon. Replacing it is difficult. But it needs to be done! An EV is already a more efficient vehicle than an ICE, you've already proven that with your own (dubius) figures.
    So a hybrid Toyota could go from 106g/km to 60g/km with a small change and no need to connect to the grid which is worldwide mostly powered by coal
    So you get to fantasise about developing hybrids, but I'm stuck plugging EVs into the world's dirtiest electric sources? Unfair.
    It's not all that bad for the environment and what matters is do we have enough for the next 30 years and the answer is definitely yes
    You should have gone to Specsavers. That is very short sighted.
    For the other 90% of countries (by population) where coal dominates then BEVs are worse for emmissions and will still be worse in a decades time
    90% of people aren't driving BEVs. BEVs are being driven on cleaner grids. China might be an exception, where I know there's been an explosion in BEV use, but then there's also been a lot of RE deployment.
  • GreatApeGreatApe
    4.5K posts
    ✭✭✭✭
    almillar wrote: »
    Disagree, not a misconception.
    I'm talking about the electric motor, versus the internal combustion engine. You're choosing inefficient ways to make electricity, the worst case scenario, to fuel the EV motor, whilst choosing best case ICE. And even then, by your own numbers, EV is more efficient!
    My EV does 3.8 miles on a kWh. You'll bang on about all the losses that occur, but many of them need not occur. The situation can be improved with, for example, solar panels and a battery in my home. My BEV will be massively more efficient than an ICE, which throws more than half the energy away, and that's energy that has had to be dug up, refined and transported to a petrol station.


    Total nonsense
    ICE is roughly the same efficiency as a BEV
    Solar panels don't change that as already discussed
    I was talking about the motor being carried around in the vehicle, not the power station. The electric motor is vastly more efficient than the ICE. Let's carry that around with us, instead of lots of tiny ICEs. Let's also sort out the efficiency of electric production, including, but not limited to, RE.

    Today the primary energy efficiency of a BEV in a gas grid is about the same as a hybrid.
    The reason the BEVs emmited a little less CO2 is that natural gas has less carbon than petrol per unit of energy. Vs the coal the BEV is less energy efficient and also more CO2 emmissions
    To be clear, I'll repeat. Petrol is an extremely energy dense and efficient storage of energy. More dense than any EV battery can hope to be any time soon.
    Replacing it is difficult. But it needs to be done! An EV is already a more efficient vehicle than an ICE, you've already proven that with your own (dubius) figures.

    No what I proved is of you live in a gas fired marginal area the BEV is about 2% efficient and that's comparing a small Zoe with a bigger corrolla. And that if you live in a coal marginal area then the BEV is worse and most the world's electricity is coal marginal fired
    So you get to fantasise about developing hybrids, but I'm stuck plugging EVs into the world's dirtiest electric sources? Unfair.

    Why is this unfair?
    How long do you think it would take to glue a 500 watt panel onto an existing hybrid model like the corolla and add 2KWh additional battery? This can be done rapidly certainly within a single year.

    How long will it take to clean up the grid?
    Well the Germans have a target to get to 35% coal by 2030 so still marginal coal by 2030
    And most the rest of the world is expanding coal generation.
    Coal generation in 2018 was the #1 source of electricity and it grew over 2017

    Oh just to be clear, solar roofs on full BEVs would make BEVs cleaner too
    Support for BEVs should be removed but maybe a small amount of support for BEVs and hybrids with self charge solar can be kept
    90% of people aren't driving BEVs. BEVs are being driven on cleaner grids. China might be an exception, where I know there's been an explosion in BEV use, but then there's also been a lot of RE deployment.

    Coal is the world's #1 source of electricity and 2018 was a record year it grew over 2017

    Wind and solar do not even meet electricity demand growth worldwide

    I'm not against wind or solar but clearly the current deployment rate is insufficient presumably because despite propaganda websites saying otherwise, it's more expensive than coal and gas.


    China is the world's biggest car market and the world's biggest coal market
    BEVs result in more Emmissions of co2 in China and most other coal heavy nations

    If you look at the top 10 populated countries they are 4.5 billion population
    95% of the population of the top 10 population countries live in a coal heavy grid
  • GreatApeGreatApe
    4.5K posts
    ✭✭✭✭
    almillar wrote: »
    . BEVs are being driven on cleaner grids.


    This is simply a fabrication in the moment

    The top 10 population countries home to 4.5 billion people are all coal heavy the only exception being Brazil and even for Brazil there is a question to if they can continue to build out a green hydro heavy grid to meet growing electricity needs as they escape poverty since many people are now against hydropower in Brazil

    China is the world's most populated country it's marginal coal
    India is the world's second most populated country it's marginal coal

    That there are some small irrelevant countries like Norway which are marginal hydropower is more or less irrelevant. China India Pakistan Bangladesh all coal heavy have a population almost 600x Norway

    You might not like it but BEVs aren't that clean especially in the big markets of the world where most the future car sales will be.
  • almillaralmillar Forumite
    8.6K posts
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    ✭✭✭✭
    Total nonsense
    ICE is roughly the same efficiency as a BEV
    Solar panels don't change that as already discussed

    Total nonsense. You seem unable to separate an electric motor, from an electric power plant, inevitably powered by fossil fuel. You refuse that RE actually contributes anything at all to the grid, ever.
    I could argue the same way, that all a hybrid runs on, is petrol, and it is therefore no more efficient than a petrol. I know that's not true though.

    'The electric motor, indepedent of fuel source, is more efficient than an ICE. The fuel source can potentially be cleaner'. I believe that statement to be factual.
    No what I proved is of you live in a gas fired marginal area the BEV is about 2% efficient and that's comparing a small Zoe with a bigger corrolla.

    It was a soul, and it was 70g/km vs 106. That's not 2%.
    Why is this unfair?

    Why is comparing the worst of present electric generation, with lots of fun future developments in ICE and hybrid? Do I really have to explain again that's not a level playing field, choosing worst case present, with some positive future?
    You might not like it but BEVs aren't that clean especially in the big markets of the world where most the future car sales will be.

    You know what our argument is really about? BEVs are clean. It's the grid that needs to be cleaned. At no point have I been under any illusion that FF are burnt to power my transport. But I KNOW that I am burning far less energy, of any sort, to move around in my EV than in my ICE.
  • edited 24 December 2019 at 3:09PM
    GreatApeGreatApe
    4.5K posts
    ✭✭✭✭
    edited 24 December 2019 at 3:09PM
    almillar wrote: »
    Total nonsense. You seem unable to separate an electric motor, from an electric power plant, inevitably powered by fossil fuel.

    An electric motor is more efficient than a petrol motor
    A BEV is about the same efficiency as an efficient ICE car

    Nobody care about the efficiency of an electric motor Vs a petrol motor but none of us are pumping water out of mine shafts for us to care what the efficiency of the motor itself is

    What matters is how many miles one primary unit of energy gets us
    If you want how many miles one litre of petrol gets in an ICE car for the same litre of petrol used to power a BEV indirectly

    And if you look at this you find that the two are almost identical

    You refuse that RE actually contributes anything at all to the grid, ever.

    Please highlight where I have said this
    Let me save you some time... nowhere

    I could argue the same way, that all a hybrid runs on, is petrol, and it is therefore no more efficient than a petrol. I know that's not true though.

    But it is true all a hybrid runs on is petrol
    A hybrid can be higher or lower efficiency Vs a pure ICE car it depends on the design of the two

    '
    The electric motor, indepedent of fuel source, is more efficient than an ICE. The fuel source can potentially be cleaner'. I believe that statement to be factual.

    Sure but this is an empty statement because we car talking about cars and primary energy efficiency. Not about one part of the system. It's like me saying the electric motor on the window of the corolla is more efficient than the electric motor on the window of the Zoe....so what?

    It was a soul, and it was 70g/km vs 106. That's not 2%.

    Again you don't understand in your hate to dismiss you make silly mistakes

    That is a measure of carbon emmissions not efficiency
    For example if the UK had some hydrogen deposits so could run hydrogen CCGTs at zero carbon emmissions then a BEV would be 0grams Vs 106grams for a hybrid. But the efficiency the energy efficiency would be roughly the same. Carbon and energy efficiency is different

    Or in very basic terms, one unit of energy from methane has less carbon than one unit of energy from petrol

    Why is comparing the worst of present electric generation, with lots of fun future developments in ICE and hybrid? Do I really have to explain again that's not a level playing field, choosing worst case present, with some positive future?

    I did not compare best or worst of anything I've multiple times given the efficiency and carbon emmissions given different cars and different grids

    In the UK a BEV is about 25% less carbon emmissions (not counting up front costs)
    In coal heavy grids, which is most the world, BEVs are about 50% worse carbon emmissions

    You know what our argument is really about? BEVs are clean. It's the grid that needs to be cleaned. At no point have I been under any illusion that FF are burnt to power my transport. But I KNOW that I am burning far less energy, of any sort, to move around in my EV than in my ICE.


    This is not true
    An efficient BEV uses roughly the same amount of primary energy as an efficient ICE
    There are carbon savings because the primary energy in the UK is primarily gas which has fewer carbon atoms Vs petrol


    You seem to be confused
    Imagine I have five cars
    With exactly the same efficiency engines
    One is hydrogen
    One is methane
    One is petrol
    One is coal
    One is nuclear

    They all use the exact same amount of energy because they have the exact same efficiency powertrain in this example

    Well the hydrogen and nuclear one emmited no carbon
    The methane car emissions are significant
    The petrol more still because petrol has more carbon atoms for a given energy than methane
    The coal more still again because more carbon atoms

    Energy efficiency is not the same as carbon emmissions
    At least understand that before you go further

    BEVs are roughly the same energy efficiency
    In the UK they are a little less carbon emmissions
    In most the word they are more carbon emmissions
    Does that clear things up?
Sign In or Register to comment.

Quick links

Essential Money | Who & Where are you? | Work & Benefits | Household and travel | Shopping & Freebies | About MSE | The MoneySavers Arms | Covid-19 & Coronavirus Support