BEV emmissions

GreatApe

almillar wrote: »

Me actually, oops.

You seem osbessed with marginal load. I click the Gridwatch link and I see that we're 45% CCGT, 17% Wind, 14% Nuclear and 5% coal.

So, do you agree that if I plug my car in right now, that's the mix that will power my car, or are you going to insist that some man has to stoke the coal fire to help power my car? I think you're getting your scales mixed up. There's 42.5GW demand right now. What effect will my 2kW 3 pin charger, 7kW home charger or 50kW rapid charger have on this?! How much electric is used to run the pumps for refueling ICE cars?!!

Yes if you plug in a load some computer system somewhere will instruct a gas or coal fired station to put a bit more gas or coal on the system. How can it be otherwise?

Look at that graphic again, as people come home around 4-7pm and start turning lights on cooking heating TV etc which power source is moving up to meet that demand?

It's not the nuclear, it's not the wind, it's not the solar, it's the gas and coal

If you plug in a BEV into a supercharger and draw 250KW from the grid the grid will respond with more gas to match that demand. 100% of that charge is from gas or coal it's not a mix of nuclear solar wind coal hydro ...

You're picking out EVs as what uses the marginal energy. You know that businesses and industry have tariffs based on grid demand. Well, I choose you, personally, in your home. Your home, specifically, runs on coal. You're using the marginal supply. Stoppit, turn everything in your home off!

In your haste to ridicule you don't even realise what you're saying is true

Let's take an example, let's say I'm considering using my tumble dryer which will consume for arguments sake 1 unit of power or I will hang the cloths out to dry

If I choose to hang them outside how much does my 1 unit of not using electricity save in emmissions

Is it the average UK grid of say 200g/unit or is it the marginal UK grid of say 400g/unit?

It is obviously the latter so my decision to dry the cloths on the line saves 400grams emmissions not 200grams

This is why efficiency gains are really beneficial they save marginal emmissions which are a lot higher than 'average emmissions'

almillar

Let's take an example, let's say I'm considering using my tumble dryer which will consume for arguments sake 1 unit of power or I will hang the cloths out to dry

Good, I'm glad you recognise that it's not just EVs using marginal electric! The way you've been talking...

This is why efficiency gains are really beneficial they save marginal emmissions which are a lot higher than 'average emmissions'

They certainly are. You've also agreed that a BEV, at 75g/km is more efficient than even a very efficient ICE, at 106g/km. Certainly significant.

A gas turbine power plant is more effient, at 50%, than any ICE outside an F1 car (ironically the most efficient ICE is the current Mercedes F1 one!), so I'm perfectly happy that even if you insist on ignoring the UK's generation mix and concentrate solely on the extra load, I'm using a very efficient form of transport, and vastly more efficient than the majority of ICE cars on the road.

GreatApe

They certainly are. You've also agreed that a BEV, at 75g/km is more efficient than even a very efficient ICE, at 106g/km. Certainly significant.

I reckon the e golf is 107g/km Vs 106g/km for an efficient ICE

A gas turbine power plant is more effient, at 50%, than any ICE

The figure is 48.9% for a CCGT in the UK
But this falls to 45.5% in your socket (7% grid loss)
And then falls to 38.7% in your battery (15% charge loss but this varies from 5-20%)
So going from natural gas to stored energy in your battery is 38.7% efficient
There is still a loss from converting that DC power in the battery to AC electricity to drive the EV motor. And another loss from the inefficiencies of the EV motor. I don't know what these two figures are but let's assume it's 8% and 2% so you are down to 34.8% from NG to kinetic energy

An ICE can be 50% efficient but those in cars are closer to 20-40%
My best estimate is a hybrid ICE engine averages 31.8% efficiency so it's worse than the BEV at 34.8% but not by much. The ICE actually winds in efficiency Vs the coal plant comparison

so I'm perfectly happy that even if you insist on ignoring the UK's generation mix and concentrate solely on the extra load, I'm using a very efficient form of transport, and vastly more efficient than the majority of ICE cars on the road.

What model EV are you using?
What is your KWh/mile measured from the socket?

BTW I don't care if you're more efficient or not
It's not much of a virtue in my eyes

almillar

I reckon the e golf is 107g/km Vs 106g/km for an efficient ICE

What's different about the eGolf from my car, which I've shown you real world figures for? Do you just not like my nice low figures, and you're now going to cling on to your made up ones?
Show your working for that figure, or accept the one that we came to together, 75.

There is still a loss from converting that DC power in the battery to AC electricity to drive the EV motor

This is within the m/kWh, just like heating, so again in your desperate attempt to make EVs look bad, you're double counting. Don't count this.

And another loss from the inefficiencies of the EV motor

There's a vague one! Friction?
1. Yet again, that will come out in the m/kWh.
2. Ever wondered how much energy is lost between an ICE and the wheels on the road? There's a lot more in between, and a lot more heat and sound energy created (wasted). Maybe don't persue this one either, eh?!

I don't know what these two figures are but let's assume it's 8% and 2% so you are down to 34.8% from NG to kinetic energy

How about we don't assume, and use the figure I thought we'd agreed on? And you've already double counted.

My best estimate is a hybrid ICE engine averages 31.8% efficiency so it's worse than the BEV at 34.8% but not by much. The ICE actually winds in efficiency Vs the coal plant comparison

So very desperate. Do your sums again, with my figures (from the REAL WORLD, not your estimations/assumtions) without the double counting.

What model EV are you using?

Kia Soul EV. Was in a Renault Zoe before and to my surprise the Kia is actually slightly more efficient!

What is your KWh/mile measured from the socket?

I don't know. My car tells me 3.8 over 2 entire years, I have a speadsheet which says 3.9. I do plenty of charging away from home at umpeen different chargers so your obsession with grid and charger losses is difficult to impossible to measure. I'd be happy with estimating 90% efficiency across the board for all chargers. Grid loss I don't know about. Don't just make something up though.

BTW I don't care if you're more efficient or not
It's not much of a virtue in my eyes

I was really hoping to impress you! OK, my other car is a Nissan 350Z, really inefficient, is that impressive?

GreatApe

almillar wrote: »

What's different about the eGolf from my car, which I've shown you real world figures for? Do you just not like my nice low figures, and you're now going to cling on to your made up ones?
Show your working for that figure, or accept the one that we came to together, 75.

Well each car has a different MPG rating mostly depend on its weigh and shape and the e golf is particularly bad at motorway speeds getting only about 2.5 miles per KWh

I am willing to accept 75g figure if you are prepared to say you've looked up at least a few dozen real world users and got 75g as an average of those real world examples. Else yours is just one driver in one model of car used in one way

This is within the m/kWh, just like heating, so again in your desperate attempt to make EVs look bad, you're double counting. Don't count this.

You were talking about efficiency of gas to kinetic energy as a percentage in which case you do have to count it

There's a vague one! Friction?
1. Yet again, that will come out in the m/kWh.
2. Ever wondered how much energy is lost between an ICE and the wheels on the road? There's a lot more in between, and a lot more heat and sound energy created (wasted). Maybe don't persue this one either, eh?!

An electric motor itself hears up due to the way it works passing current through wires to create magnetic Fields. It's not huge but it is about 2-5% loss

ICE to wheels is steel on steel chains and cogs the loss of which is close to negligible

How about we don't assume, and use the figure I thought we'd agreed on? And you've already double counted.

I'm happy to use any figure you say so long as you find a few more real world examples so far you've claimed just one model driven by one driver in one particular way using probably mostly the same routes. If you are willing to go look up at least 10 drivers ideally 100 I am happy to use that figure it may in fact come up lower than your 75g. Ideally 100 different drivers using different models too so we can get a mix

So very desperate. Do your sums again, with my figures (from the REAL WORLD, not your estimations/assumtions) without the double counting.

Willing to use a figure you state so long as you go away and find more than one example to base it off. At least come back with 3 data points so we can at least see if there is a spread. Ideally 30+ to be able to say with more confidence.

Kia Soul EV. Was in a Renault Zoe before and to my surprise the Kia is actually slightly more efficient!

There you go not the exact same figure hence why you need to provide more than a couple of data points

I don't know. My car tells me 3.8 over 2 entire years

That's good to know if you had a few more data points like this we can use the average of them but just one BEV data is too limited.

I was really hoping to impress you!

I am impressed you seem to be following this much more easily and fully than most are able to

OK, my other car is a Nissan 350Z, really inefficient, is that impressive?

I have no idea what that car is but I like that it ends in a Z so yes I am impressed
It's inefficiencies or not doesn't matter to me I'm not some fanatic who thinks I can look positively or negatively on your fossil fuel useage. I just don't care isn't an insult or negative I don't care about a lot of thinf sjust like you don't care about a lot of things it doesn't register any importance.

I discuss this stuff because it's a mild hobby and interest but I really really couldn't care less if a person buys X y or z car

GreatApe

GreatApe wrote: »

A gas turbine power plant is more effient, at 50%, than any ICE

The problem with the efficiency of BEVs is that there are many more steps each one with a loss
An electric motor can be 98% efficient an ICE far far less so but an electric motor needs

Gas/Coal fired power station
Step up transformer
Miles and miles of high voltage AC
Step down transformer
Miles of medium voltage AC
Another step down transformer
Miles of low voltage AC to your home
Converting AC to DC to charge the battery
Converting that DC into AC to give to the motor

All this taken into account the actual efficiency of the system is the high 30%s for starting with CCGT and and high 20%s if starting with coal

An ICE is the ICE then a negligible transmission of this power through steel cogs and bars with little to no losses and this same loss whatever it is is also present in BEVs which also have gears and steel bars and differentials etc.

A modern ICE in a hybrid gets mid 30% so it's much better than coal BEV and only marginally worse than a CCGT BEV

EricMears

almillar wrote: »

What is your KWh/mile measured from the socket?

I don't know. My car tells me 3.8 over 2 entire years, I have a speadsheet which says 3.9. I do plenty of charging away from home at umpeen different chargers so your obsession with grid and charger losses is difficult to impossible to measure.

Not sure of the full context of the quoted question, but I can supply some possibly helpful figures:-

In the 20 months I've had my Nissan Leaf, whenever the battery has been charged to 100%, I've made a note of the reported 'energy efficiency' figures and the 'real' ones based on metered power (or an accurate guess when actual readings not available from unmetered free chargers) since previous 100% event. After each full charge, I've reset the car's figure.

The average of the car's individual figures has been 3.63 whereas averaging my 'real' ones has been 3.21. That would suggest the conversion efficiency of the charging system is around 87%.

HTH

almillar

Well each car has a different MPG rating mostly depend on its weigh and shape and the e golf is particularly bad at motorway speeds getting only about 2.5 miles per KWh

I don't think I get much better on a motorway TBH. People don't live on motorways, and once again you're choosing the best of ICE (as good as 106g/km), versus the worst of EV (a supposedly inefficient one at motorway speed). Even the playing field!

I am willing to accept 75g figure if you are prepared to say you've looked up at least a few dozen real world users and got 75g as an average of those real world examples. Else yours is just one driver in one model of car used in one way

Gobsmacking. That 75g figure came from YOU, with corrections from ME. I can stand over my figures much better than any you've provided.

You were talking about efficiency of gas to kinetic energy as a percentage in which case you do have to count it

I thought you were referring to the heating system in the car. But I already stated 50%, and you corrected it to 49% - it's an overall figure, so the entire conversion of gas - heat - kinetic has already taken place.

An electric motor itself hears up due to the way it works passing current through wires to create magnetic Fields. It's not huge but it is about 2-5% loss

Sure. It's there, but you are double counting. My car moves 3 miles, and uses 1kWh. That 2-5% loss is included in that figure! Double counting

ICE to wheels is steel on steel chains and cogs the loss of which is close to negligible.

Ridiculous! You've already said yourself that hybrids are up to 40% efficient. The rest is heat and noise and friction, from all the bits banging off each other. An electric motor is far, far more efficient in this regard. Again, from your own figures, it's 95-98% vs up to 40%.

If you are willing to go look up at least 10 drivers ideally 100 I am happy to use that figure it may in fact come up lower than your 75g

You're the one making the controversial claims. I am ONE real world user. Actually 2, if you count 2 years, 15,000 miles in the Zoe, at 3.7 overall average. You do some research. I'm trying to help with some real world numbers, and you're telling me to go get more. No. Just beleive me. I'm not a light footed hippie. I've given you a source, the speakEV forums, where you can read to your heart's content about EV drivers, what m/kWh they're getting, hypermiling, all the problems they have, lots of scraremongering, etc. I found it a very useful source of information, but I didn't record it in case some guy on the internet didn't believe me or didn't think I was representative. Bottom line? That 75 is the best you've got until you improve it. I've taken so, so many of your figures as read, do me the same courtesy for ones I've actually experienced.

At least come back with 3 data points so we can at least see if there is a spread. Ideally 30+ to be able to say with more confidence.

A vastly higher standard than you hold yourself to. No.

There you go not the exact same figure hence why you need to provide more than a couple of data points

Absolutely. 3.8m/kWh over 12k miles, 2 years for Soul, 3.7m/kWh for Zoe, over 15k miles, 2 years. If you want to find an inefficient EV, go and get the figures from the iPace forum. Aparantly a 2 tonne Jag SUV isn't very efficient! But that wouldn't be representative, would it, and you're only comparing against the most efficient ICE.

I discuss this stuff because it's a mild hobby and interest but I really really couldn't care less if a person buys X y or z car

It's great that you don't judge, but many of the claims and 'facts' you tout aren't straight at all. I'm trying to fix them. A great example in your next post:

An ICE is the ICE then a negligible transmission of this power through steel cogs and bars with little to no losses and this same loss whatever it is is also present in BEVs which also have gears and steel bars and differentials etc.

Negligable transmission in your world is 60%+ of the energy, that is waste heat and noise and friction. I know you think that the 2-5% loss in an EV is significant, so why are you ignoring the 60% in the most efficient ICEs?

EVandPV

Here's my figures with the Zoe, my daily commute involving about 10 miles urban and 15 miles motorway averaging 65-70mph on motorway.
In the summer, I was averaging 3.8m/kwh and currently 3.5m/kwh.
The lowest I've seen it during several days of -5°C was 3.3m/kwh so cold weather not having a huge effect.

ABrass

Fun fact, the Leaf uses a DC motor. No DC to AC conversion needed. I do see some of GAs posts in quotes so even on ignore I still get his FUD leaking through.