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Picking up on the last couple of posts, does anyone have figures on the amount of CO2 used in producing a car and the lifetime of the car? I'm wondering how this compares with the amount of CO2 emitted as a result of the use of fuel?0
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Crikey - this is a difficult one!Picking up on the last couple of posts, does anyone have figures on the amount of CO2 used in producing a car and the lifetime of the car? I'm wondering how this compares with the amount of CO2 emitted as a result of the use of fuel?
Here's a stab at an answer for the UK:
CO2 to make a BMW 3 Series: 17000 kg
UK average CO2/kWh generated: 280g
Model 3 kWh/km: 0.2
3 Series: g/km: 120
Lifetime of an ICE car: 240,000 km
Lifetime of an EV: Unknown
From the above:
3 Series lifetime CO2: 17,000 + (0.12 x 240,000) = 45,800 kg
Model 3 lifetime CO2: 17,000* + (0.28 x 0.2 x 240,000*) = 30,440 kg
* The actual CO2 required to make a TM3 is almost certainly much higher than this - the difference being attributable to manufacturing the battery pack. This will be offset to some extent by re-purposing the batteries once they become too degraded for the car.
* The lifetime of an EV could be much longer than the typical 150,000 of an ICE vehicle. Early indications are that the TM3 is only suffering a 5-7% battery degradation at 100,000 miles. This suggests that a Long Range TM3 would still be capable of 200 miles on a charge after 400,000 miles.4kWp (black/black) - Sofar Inverter - SSE(141°) - 30° pitch - North LincsInstalled June 2013 - PVGIS = 3400Sofar ME3000SP Inverter & 5 x Pylontech US2000B Plus & 3 x US2000C Batteries - 19.2kWh0 -
Picking up on the last couple of posts, does anyone have figures on the amount of CO2 used in producing a car and the lifetime of the car? I'm wondering how this compares with the amount of CO2 emitted as a result of the use of fuel?
In one of my earlier posts mmmmikey, for a mid sized ice car its about 20 tonnes, for an EV a bit more although they dont say how much more - likely 10-20% although one swedish study put the just the battery in a long range tesla at the same as a mid ranged ICE car.
Obviously smaller cars like a fiesta are in the 7-10 tonnes bracket but smaller EVs are disporportionately higher with 7-10 tonnes being the CO2 cost of the battery itself. Seen figures like 150-200kg per kwh mentioned but I think thats averaged out and will improve.
End of life recycling costs vary (depending on when/if parts can be used) but about 2-5 tonnes. EVs, it will all depend on if they can get the battery recycling sorted or not. If so then its on the lower side of the ICE, if not, way higher.
Each car produced is roughly 5-10 years of running an ICE car depending on mileage etc. So from my earlier figures its closer to 8-10 years for me.
To give you a rough idea brand new model 3 will over its lifetime (using NI electricity) create a bit more emissions than a brand new toyota yaris petrol, provided the battery can be recycled.0 -
* The lifetime of an EV could be much longer than the typical 150,000 of an ICE vehicle. Early indications are that the TM3 is only suffering a 5-7% battery degradation at 100,000 miles. This suggests that a Long Range TM3 would still be capable of 200 miles on a charge after 400,000 miles.
Problem is, the average lifetime of a car in the UK is 6-7 years... but thats why they quote mileage figures. As Ive mentioned, surprisingly, that figure hasnt really changed at all in the last 20 years.
Maybe it will change with EVs, who knows?0 -
Autocar published an article on this which I put on here a while back and which I have been able to find again courtesy of google
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/analysis-just-how-green-are-electric-vehicles
As Nick said, it’s complicated.
The latest study on the ‘CO2 lag’ of electric cars comes from the University of Liège in Belgium. Calculations by Professor Damien Ernst, originally commissioned by a TV show and reported by local newspaper HLN, are by far the most negative take on EVs yet.
Using the average CO2 output of the European electricity network, Ernst concluded that an electric car using a 60kWh battery made in Europe would have to travel some 700,000 kilometres (435,000 miles) before it is “greener than an average petrol car”. However, Ernst also says that a fully renewable European grid would reduce the EV’s CO2 lag to just 30,000km (18,640 miles).
The story caused an expected stir in Belgium with arguments about Ernst’s calculations, which were variously adjusted to around 350,000km or, in the case of claims from professors at the Delft University of Technology, the calculation is ‘just’ 80,000km driving before the vehicle breaks even on its larger manufacturing energy footprint.
Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)0 -
* The lifetime of an EV could be much longer than the typical 150,000 of an ICE vehicle. Early indications are that the TM3 is only suffering a 5-7% battery degradation at 100,000 miles. This suggests that a Long Range TM3 would still be capable of 200 miles on a charge after 400,000 miles.
Double quoting is bad form I know but Ive just checked the average annual mileage for uk cars in 2017 and it was just over 7100 miles.
I did notice down the years the insurance renewal default mileage had dropped from 12000 down to 8000 and thought it was just another attempt to get money out me!
Im genuinely surprised at that.
I know you cant really multiple average years old by average miles and get anything meaningful but that figure comes out at less than 50k miles!0 -
Double quoting is bad form I know but Ive just checked the average annual mileage for uk cars in 2017 and it was just over 7100 miles.
I did notice down the years the insurance renewal default mileage had dropped from 12000 down to 8000 and thought it was just another attempt to get money out me!
Im genuinely surprised at that.
I know you cant really multiple average years old by average miles and get anything meaningful but that figure comes out at less than 50k miles!
The more cars you have the lower the annual mileage. None of our vehicles do more than 6000 miles pa. My Mercedes which is not so much a means of transport as an indulgence has done just 16,000 miles in 4 years. It doesn’t get used for short trips, just top down days out or long runs to motor racing circuits. I have had as much as 68mpg out of it and its CO2 figure is 114 g/km which works out at 730 kg pa. My Golf would be under 1000kg pa and the Picanto similar (as both sub 100g/km). If I were to replace any of those with a BEV it would take decades to save back the CO2 used in its manufacture.
I think it was Joe pointed out, the manufacture of a BEV is front end CO2 loaded - huge CO2 cost now in the hope of a reduction in decades to come. There is an argument that we should not therefore be rolling out BEVs at this stage of the climate crisis - it is causing an unnecessary spike in CO2.Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)0 -
Crikey - this is a difficult one!
Here's a stab at an answer for the UK:
CO2 to make a BMW 3 Series: 17000 kg
UK average CO2/kWh generated: 280g
Model 3 kWh/km: 0.2
3 Series: g/km: 120
Lifetime of an ICE car: 240,000 km
Lifetime of an EV: Unknown
From the above:
3 Series lifetime CO2: 17,000 + (0.12 x 240,000) = 45,800 kg
Model 3 lifetime CO2: 17,000* + (0.28 x 0.2 x 240,000*) = 30,440 kg
* The actual CO2 required to make a TM3 is almost certainly much higher than this - the difference being attributable to manufacturing the battery pack. This will be offset to some extent by re-purposing the batteries once they become too degraded for the car.
* The lifetime of an EV could be much longer than the typical 150,000 of an ICE vehicle. Early indications are that the TM3 is only suffering a 5-7% battery degradation at 100,000 miles. This suggests that a Long Range TM3 would still be capable of 200 miles on a charge after 400,000 miles.
I think your figures assume far too high a mileage and too long an ownership
People like to buy new things. A sofa might last 50 years but few people keep one that long!
Just because a car can do say 300,000 miles it won't necessarily be kept for that long
If the typical UK car does 7,100 miles and the average car is scrapped at around age 14 then the typical useage is just shy of 100,000 miles
Also bear in mind many cars are lost to damage/crashes which will further reduce the average mileage.
If you take your 17 tons CO2 to manufacture a premium car + 120 grams per km and assume a more reasonable 200,000km average life that equals 41 tons
If you take the average of the next 15 year UK grid to be about 150 grams the Tesla model 3 including self discharge and standing losses then the car will use about 45,000 units or About 6.75 tons from the grid + manufacturing costs
If the manufacturing costs are say 25 tons that results in 31.75 tons Vs 41 tons
So a very modest 23% lifetime reduction in CO2
And this is powers by a very clean UK future grid
Most other places like Germany have a much more polluting grid so the saving may be smaller or non existent
Makes me wonder if BEVs are actually worth it right now
Perhaps not for personal useage maybe out the r&d and subsidy into high mileage BEVs like buses and taxis and trucks0 -
People like to buy new things. A sofa might last 50 years but few people keep one that long!
Just because a car can do say 300,000 miles it won't necessarily be kept for that long
If the typical UK car does 7,100 miles and the average car is scrapped at around age 14 then the typical useage is just shy of 100,000 miles
Also bear in mind many cars are lost to damage/crashes which will further reduce the average mileage.
If you take your 17 tons CO2 to manufacture a premium car + 120 grams per km and assume a more reasonable 200,000km average life that equals 41 tons
If you take the average of the next 15 year UK grid to be about 150 grams the Tesla model 3 including self discharge and standing losses then the car will use about 45,000 units or About 6.75 tons from the grid + manufacturing costs
If the manufacturing costs are say 25 tons that results in 31.75 tons Vs 41 tons
So a very modest 23% lifetime reduction in CO2
And this is powers by a very clean UK future grid
Most other places like Germany have a much more polluting grid so the saving may be smaller or non existent
Makes me wonder if BEVs are actually worth it right now
Perhaps not for personal useage maybe out the r&d and subsidy into high mileage BEVs like buses and taxis and trucks
I was given a sofa by my aunt in 1976. It was from 1946 when she got married. We recovered it ourselves in 1981 and finally parted with it 2006 giving it to my cousin - it was sixty years old and still going strong and it might still be.
My son bought a 1961 MG when he was 17 years old. It took him 18 months to do it up and it is still on the road. I don’t think he will ever part with it.Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)0 -
The more cars you have the lower the annual mileage. None of our vehicles do more than 6000 miles pa. My Mercedes which is not so much a means of transport as an indulgence has done just 16,000 miles in 4 years. It doesn’t get used for short trips, just top down days out or long runs to motor racing circuits. I have had as much as 68mpg out of it and its CO2 figure is 114 g/km which works out at 730 kg pa. My Golf would be under 1000kg pa and the Picanto similar (as both sub 100g/km). If I were to replace any of those with a BEV it would take decades to save back the CO2 used in its manufacture.
I think it was Joe pointed out, the manufacture of a BEV is front end CO2 loaded - huge CO2 cost now in the hope of a reduction in decades to come. There is an argument that we should not therefore be rolling out BEVs at this stage of the climate crisis - it is causing an unnecessary spike in CO2.
Self drive software is necessary to solve transport
The manufacturing cost spread over a million mile self drive taxi is much lower than the same BEV used for just 100,000 miles. Fleet charging will also be much more efficient as fleets can time to charge at optimal levels or even charge at dedicated solar farms and wind farms.
Perhaps the energy should be spent on keeping old cars on the road longer
Or making petrol cars more efficient like with the mild hybrids which get 5-10% better fuel economy
Right now efficiency and changing from coal to gas, gas to wind power seem to make sense
Maybe 2025-2040 electrifying heating will make sense probably with simple resistance heaters
When self drive software comes along mass deployment of BEVs will make sense
Until then BEVs should mostly be used for high mileage applications
Buses taxis trucks HGVs
Time to get rid of the £3,500 plug in grant
And the 0% BIK should be killed before it comes in
Giving rich folk £40k tax breaks to buy £100k BEVs doesn't seem like a wise use of resources especially as these BEVs don't have much (if any) lower lifetime CO2 emmissions
Instead deploy more wind more rapidly
Maybe the 30GW offshore by 2030 should become 50GW offshore by 2030
That is 80TWh of extra green electricity production
At a minimum it could be used to displace gas heating at average 230 grams/KWh
18 million tons CO2 reduction from the extra offshore wind farms
Vs not much at all from BEV deployment0
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