BEVs deals and information

1961Nick

joefizz wrote: »

No.
One parked on the drive, one parked on the street.... its sometimes the simple things that get overlooked.

Charge them alternate nights?

GreatApe

1961Nick wrote: »

Personally I think 90% of charging will be done at home or work in the future. With battery packs now approaching an actual 300 miles range, the need to charge during a journey is becoming more of an exception. Arriving home & plugging in will become as routine as locking your car doors. Building regs should immediately be changed to mandate an EV charging point when a new build property has a drive or allocated parking space. The easiest way to make EV adoption happen is to make it easy. The OLEV grant should be made available to everybody regardless of whether they have an EV or not.

If we can reduce charging away from home, the roll out of EVs won't be limited by the lack of a public charging infrastructure. This is important because that part of the plan is well behind the curve.

I am not convinced this will be the case

How many properties don't have a drive?

How many properties do have a drive but don't fancy the ugly internal cable runs that would be required from the consumer unit to the BEV charger outside? I looked into getting a 7KW charger for my home and my parents home but I don't want visible cable runs and I don't really want to chase into the walls to create a new cable inside the walls. For multiple reasons cost time dirt and even risk of cutting into a wire or pipe. A Slow 10amp charger would be easier to sort out as you could potentially just connect it to the most suitable existing outlet

This probably means around 50% of households don't have a drive or charging at home isn't really an option so there has to be lots and lots of public chargers and super chargers. Plus the simple fact do you really want to deploy and install 30-50 million chargers at every home and most businesses? That will cost the nation the best part of £20-40 billion to do. That's a very big cost


Instead I think a mass deployment of rapid public chargers is necessary
Think of a 150KW rapid charger will mean a half hour charge will fill most cars up from 10-90%
Half an hour is a long time to wait but it's only once or twice per week
With a mass deployment of rapid chargers it also allows lower range EVs to be acceptable
You don't need to buy a 300 mile range model you can buy a 150 mile range model and still be happy

Most people don't even consider or know what a petrol cars tank is in liters they just accept that there will be a petrol station everywhere so they won't run out of fuel. The same needs to be true for EV charging. I should be happy knowing that when I get down to 15% charge I will have lots of options before I get down to 10%

Presumably this won't be too difficult to achieve because an EV charger is so much smaller and cheaper than building a petrol station. Especially the 7.2KW destination chargers. They should be everywhere. Not 30-50 million chargers like doing it for all homes but 1 million 7.2KW chargers would more or less be 'everywhere' you'd never be more than about 100 meters from such a charger.

GreatApe

joefizz wrote: »

No.
One parked on the drive, one parked on the street.... its sometimes the simple things that get overlooked.

If the typical EV has 200 miles range and cycling between 15-95% would mean a typical EV driver only needs to charge up once per week. So a dual EV household with just one drive would work fine.

Also I suspect 7.2 KW and 3.6 KW chargers will become very common
Electricity is everywhere and these low power chargers don't cost a huge amount to install
If every street had just one 7.2 KW charger that would be fine to cover many households on that street

Charge per unit of electricity say 10p a unit and also perhaps 30p per hour post charging
This way someone might take their EV to the charger on their road which is say 5 doors down
Walk 30 seconds home. Do whatever they are doing. Then five hours later they get a text saying charging full. They walk 30 seconds to the car and drive back 10 seconds to their drive

This one 7.2 KW charger could keep 30 households cars full
With each car visiting for about 5h a week
Even if you did lots of miles and had an upper end 100KWh BEV plug in an go from 10% to 96% overnight from 8pm to 8am

GreatApe

mmmmikey wrote: »

I'm not sure I'd characterise this as fear mongering. I think it would be fair to say that almost everyone here is in favour of BEVs in principle; people are just pointing out various practical reasons why BEVs haven't quite come of age yet for them. As you say, ability to charge 2 BEVs may not be a big thing in itself for many, but for others it's just another factor that makes it hard to justify what, for some, is the significant extra cost of running a BEV at the moment.

Could force (or pay) every petrol station in the land to install at least one 100KW (or more) fast charger

This would allow people to not worry about range knowing that every petrol station has a rapid charger. A 15 min pit stop could add 100 mile range easily enough to get you home

Or every supermarket car park
Do your shopping while you're there too

They will just become so common no one will worry about range
In the same way most people don't keep their petrol tanks full to the top they are happy to go down to 50 mile range petrol on the tank because they know there are enough petrol stations they won't run out before getting to the next petrol station. Fast chargers will be so common people won't care being down to 10% charge as they will know they can get to a fast charger

joefizz

I'll respond to some of the points in reply to mine below.

almillar wrote: »

They get scrapped (after being stripped for parts) or exported, like any ICE. Where are you getting this from about Leafs? They're certainly worth a lot more with the battery in them. You need to be more specific.

Have a look on howmanyleft quite a drop off in registered/sorn numbers of some types of leafs (and other ice cars, its not a particular leaf thing) after just a couple of years. They cant all be crashing after 3 years...

almillar wrote: »

OK, sure. It's a new car every 3 or whatever years. PCP is certainly an enabler for that kind of behaviour.

As above and as you mentioned below this its a car industry thing. The original government scrappage scheme created stockpiles of old cars to be disposed of and it took a while to develop the infrastructure to dispose of them. Once that was dealt with, did the infrastructure go away or was it used to take ex-pcp cars prematurely off the road to keep the credit ponzi going or was inbuilt obsolescence the official excuse?
I'll give you an example, I drive a small engined turbo diesel. If not maintained properly the turbos tend to go bang. My car is 12 years old. At about 7 years old there were reports of this happening regularly with the replacement turbos costing around 900 quid plus fixing whatever damage it caused. Cars scrapped when it happens as back then the repair was more than half its worth and you could get a replacement for about 250 quid a month.... Time lag in the interim meant small businesses saw profitability in developing ways to refurb the turbos without replacement. Right now I can get my turbo refurbed for not much more than 100 quid... As a result my car is strangely worth more 2nd hand now than it was 4 years ago as repairs costs less, carries a lot of stuff, high mpg, low annual tax... go figure...


I remember years ago getting the bus into Belfast carrying a starter motor for a ford orion. I went to a place over the boucher road and they just swapped it for a refurb one and I got the bus home, fitted it and so on. Other than doing it myself Id have no idea where to go now as the place closed down a few years ago because people werent fixing cars any more, just pcping new ones.

almillar wrote: »

Sure. So I'll ask - are you willing to pay more for your used cars, as a result of people buying fewer new cars (supply/demand)?

Thats a bit of a non-sequitur to be honest. The cars may not cost more because they run longer. In fact it is likely it might drop the residuals of some second hand cars.... that would be a disaster for pcp...

Certainly it might cost more to maintain them but as the example above shows it only takes a couple of years of non user serviceable parts to become serviceable if someone can make a living from it.
From my own example above the cheaper to run, high mpg, family type cars hold their value or in my case have increased a little recently but cars which cost a few hundred to tax are becoming worthless at the cheaper end.
I notice most model 3s are hit with the luxury car tax surcharge. Maybe go some way to offset the loss in fuel duty.



The original scrappage scheme raised the prices of older 2nd hand cars as people were buying them for a few hundred quid less than the scrappage price to get the money off a new one. Cars above that price dropped in price accordingly.
Similarly up until a couple of years ago there was a lower limit for credit on cars through dealers so cars were priced to keep them above that. There was then a dead spot in value below.

almillar wrote: »

I don't know anything about a credit withdrawal that you keep mentioning. But how do you explain the crash in diesel sales? Is that because people are allowed a PCP on a petrol, but not a diesel? Are you sure it's this supposed credit withdrawal going on, or is it a lot of doubt about one form of fuel, a new form of fuel coming in, consumer confidence etc.?

Somebody posted a link to either the telegraph or FT article over the weekend about slow withdrawal/increase in price of PCP.
Negative press about diesels and the fear of banning them in city centres and generally poisoning our kids. Im surprised at the prices of nearly new diesels at the minute, it looks like dealers cant give them away. Id be tempted if it wasnt for issues like the turbo issue mentioned above. Dieselgate, large additive tanks, specialist oils and maintenance and fragile components (turbo, maf, dpf, etc). A mate was charged over a grand for one of these components a couple of years ago, said hed never buy a diesel again.
All to meet emissions, and really to mis sell into the market, diesels shouldnt really be considered for lots of short run trips - blame Gordon Brown for that. I remember talking to someone who was doing a PhD thesis in diesel particulates way back in 1999...
Its why I keep the old petrol car, at some point they may ban diesel cars from Belfast and if that includes the Westlink then we are in trouble!



You cant compare cars built now to cars built in the 1980s but the average time for a car on the road has remained relatively constant at between 6 and 7 years over the last 20. Unsurprisingly dipping during the booms and climbing during the busts. In the last 5 years or so its been slowly dropping, despite cars being more reliable than they have ever been in theory.


As I mentioned before thats about the time the initial CO2 in the build is offset so how does it make sense to then take cars off the road earlier, when they are never going to live long enough for the benefits of reduced emissions to take effect. Thats regardless of method of propulsion.

joefizz

1961Nick wrote: »

Charge them alternate nights?

See, I would have thought the same.
Im not married though.

JKenH

Presumably cables used for street charging will spend their time lying in the gutter. I would be interested to hear from anyone who charges on the street if putting the cable away is as messy as packing up your electric hook up cable when caravanning or motorhoming. Just the sort of job one looks forward to on a cold wet morning before setting off to work.

EricMears

joefizz wrote: »

No.
One parked on the drive, one parked on the street.... its sometimes the simple things that get overlooked.

Even that's not an insuperable problem. Charge one during afternoon/evening then swap positions just before bedtime and charge the other one.

When I only had an 18kWh battery and effective range of 70 miles I had to charge almost every night. But even so, we could have managed to charge a visitor's car before we needed to connect our own

With a 40kWh battery and 150 miles of range every third night is nearer the mark so for two nights out of three we could invite another EV owner to use the socket (but don't all rush at once )

joefizz

EricMears wrote: »

Even that's not an insuperable problem.

Nothing is really insurmountable. People just cant be arsed.

joefizz

JKenH wrote: »

Presumably cables used for street charging will spend their time lying in the gutter. I would be interested to hear from anyone who charges on the street if putting the cable away is as messy as packing up your electric hook up cable when caravanning or motorhoming. Just the sort of job one looks forward to on a cold wet morning before setting off to work.

Ah dont remind me, the joys of smelling two day old cat/dog pee coming from the cupboard the cable is stored in...


Or when plugged in at night some funny git unplugging you and that was parked on my brothers drive in January in the camper...