BEVs deals and information

1961Nick

GreatApe wrote: »

Right now electric cars are a tiny fraction of the stock of cars but if they become popular I would imagine super chargers would be much much more common and the prices would be much more competitive

If that was the case I suspect many EV owners would charge purely on these super chargers once or twice a week. If they were very common then people would be fine using their cars until they are about 10% charge remaining just like many people use their petrol cars until there is only about 50 miles of petrol remaining. Safe in the knowledge that there are superchargers everywhere in the same way there are petrol stations everywhere

Personally I think 90% of charging will be done at home or work in the future. With battery packs now approaching an actual 300 miles range, the need to charge during a journey is becoming more of an exception. Arriving home & plugging in will become as routine as locking your car doors. Building regs should immediately be changed to mandate an EV charging point when a new build property has a drive or allocated parking space. The easiest way to make EV adoption happen is to make it easy. The OLEV grant should be made available to everybody regardless of whether they have an EV or not.

If we can reduce charging away from home, the roll out of EVs won't be limited by the lack of a public charging infrastructure. This is important because that part of the plan is well behind the curve.

EricMears

joefizz wrote: »

So again, using a real world example if a visitor here turns up to charge their car, if I was charging mine they would have to (make other arrangements). . .

It would be rather bad manners to turn up at anyone else's house demanding to charge your car immediately ! If anything, it would probably be worse to do that to another EV owner than to an 'ordinary' friend. Given adequate notice both cars could get all the charge they need. Giving a visitor more than enough electricity to get to the nearest rapid charger would be no problem and any reasonable EV owner should be more than happy with that.

Joe's 'problem' is probably that he only has one dedicated charging point - hopefully a 7kW one (drawing 30A).

(as Martyn has explained), the visitor could use the 7kW plug from arrival until departure (or bedtime if they're staying overnight) leaving Joe free to use it for at least 7hrs (probably the E7 window) gaining 200 miles in the process. The visitor could use the 7kW socket for the duration of their stay (or till bedtime) which wouldn't interfere with Joe's requirements at all.

But there's a backup position : one or both cars could use a 'granny lead' to charge at 10A (roughly 2.4kW). Even with both cars charging at once, total charging load would only be 20A (or 40A if one was on the 7kW circuit) which should be well within the capacity of the house's main fuse (mine is 100A, 80A is fairly common but anything less than 60A would be very unusual).

joefizz

EricMears wrote: »

I Given adequate notice both cars could get all the charge they need. Giving a visitor more than enough electricity to get to the nearest rapid charger would be no problem and any reasonable EV owner should be more than happy with that.

(mine is 100A, 80A is fairly common but anything less than 60A would be very unusual).

This is the point though, it also requires behaviour modification with relatively low mileages and mileage vs weather conditions etc. An ex girlfriend used to run her car until the light came on then borrow mine and do the same, slight frustration in the morning moving the seat back and then seeing the light stay on. Slightly more than slight frustration in an EV, its not a quick drive to the petrol station or getting the hidden 5 litre can out of the boot!



Youve touched on a point why one of my friends cant have 2 EVs, 60A fuse in an old victorian detached house that cant be upgraded without about 10 grand cable upgrade. Everything is grand until installer turns up sees, 60A fuse, electric cooking, electric shower and you are going to get a 16A or worse charger!


Most people arent looking at the realities of all this, including the governments, although their quotas and removing/adding incentives are supposed to.
I used to have a 100% renewable electric tariff. All wind power. If I turned the oven on I knew it was total eco and green. But it wasnt. Yes, when I turned the oven on someone elses proportion of the electricity they use would go down to fulfill my 100% tariff but in the end unless I could suddenly get the wind to blow that wee bit harder, someone somewhere turned up the gas, put another shovel of coal in the boiler or kicked the STOR diesel into operation (ok not quite but its painting a picture).



We dont know the usage patterns for charging yet, its an unknown. There are a lot of guesses out there with someone I know now relying on charging his car at work as he cant get a full charge at home at night. There are already reports on the tesla forums of people using the previously empty supercharger spots as free parking places ;-) Human nature !!!!!!! Thats fine and doable as they are the only one with an EV for the two charging spots. Wait until 2 more get bought then they are going to have to work out some method of sharing. Great if you all work in the same company or dont clear off for lunch or....
Its something most of us havent thought about but are going to have to think about asap, or be perhaps running cars with the equivalent of the fuel light on all the time...



It may also have other ramifications. I charge my phone at night, plug it in before I go to bed, unplug it in the morning. Im not a heavy user and have a decent phone that doesnt need charging during the day (except the very rare occasion I dont plug it in). The charge level can be anywhere between 80% and 4% depending on how it was used during the day. Now scale that up to something drawing a lot of kW.
It could be the end of economy 7 for the rest of the population and you can imagine the squealing....
All the EV purchases are new power draw to the system. Granted its small enough now to not make a difference and whilst there are growth plans and plans to cope with it, even with solar eventually computer had to say no in certain regions here due to loads.
If and Im making an assumption and I prefer to use evidence rather than make an !!! of u and me, most of the charging is at night then if the wind doesnt blow does the gas get turned up, coal get chucked on or fire up the diesel engined stors to cope with the difference or 12am surge... If the latter were the case we are wasting our time... If we all schedule the charging to be during E7 hours then the E7 hours wont be around for much longer but again its probably going to change to different pricing for EV charging anyway, no point installing all those smart chargers if you cant use them.... ...how else are the govt going to get the fuel duty... (another reason for installing a lower capacity, dumb charger, your EV doesnt look like an EV)



Everyone assumes that because they have installed 7kw chargers that they will always get 7kw juice... try asking 100Mb broadband users what speeds they get 6-9pm of a weekday.... wondering why they used to get 100Mb all the time but as time went on they get less and less (hint other people in the street have 100Mb)


I dont get that people who have 4Kw of solar installed and understand the reasons why its capped at 4kW dont join the dots about 7kW chargers... when they should be called 'up to 7kW chargers'.

Early days for this to be noticed but the occasional post on EV car forums is starting to show up about not charging at peak..

ABrass

The talk about not being able to charge two EVs is a little odd. Most people don't need to do a full charge every night.

For it to be a problem you've got to have a situation where two or more cars are flat and can't make it to a fast charger and you must have the power for first thing the next day. Not impossible but it stinks of fear mongering.

mmmmikey

ABrass wrote: »

The talk about not being able to charge two EVs is a little odd. Most people don't need to do a full charge every night.

For it to be a problem you've got to have a situation where two or more cars are flat and can't make it to a fast charger and you must have the power for first thing the next day. Not impossible but it stinks of fear mongering.

I'm not sure I'd characterise this as fear mongering. I think it would be fair to say that almost everyone here is in favour of BEVs in principle; people are just pointing out various practical reasons why BEVs haven't quite come of age yet for them. As you say, ability to charge 2 BEVs may not be a big thing in itself for many, but for others it's just another factor that makes it hard to justify what, for some, is the significant extra cost of running a BEV at the moment.

Martyn1981

joefizz wrote: »

Youve touched on a point why one of my friends cant have 2 EVs, 60A fuse in an old victorian detached house that cant be upgraded without about 10 grand cable upgrade. Everything is grand until installer turns up sees, 60A fuse, electric cooking, electric shower and you are going to get a 16A or worse charger!

I'm still unclear why all cars need full charging all at the same time. This doesn't sound reasonable. Possible, yes, but not necessarily likely.

As Eric has worked out, the combo of fast charger and granny charger would work fine, but even if both vehicles were on granny chargers and had to be charged at the same time, then you are looking at charging from evening park up, say 7pm to morning start, say 8pm, that's 13hrs at 2.4kW which is approx 120 miles each (v's UK average of 22 per day). If a very long journey is planned, then fast charger stops would be needed anyway. Or if the BEV was capable of much greater range, then I'd suggest it would have been charged (steadily) in advance, ready for the big trip.

And if the problem is one that is expected to be far more common, then the bulk of the UK housing stock could easily cope with 2 fast chargers (56A, v's the common 80/100A). And then moving forward, new builds with 3-phase might be sensible, in fact I think there is something being considered in law, as currently (no pun intended) DNO's have to offer the cheapest option to builders and developers for connection, whereas forward looking options, might be better for all.

almillar

My point about Africa was, yes I agree if thats the case and its one of the things mentioned but theres no figures ever given to what happens to excess cars of that age. Isnt there a problem with some of the leafs with rented batteries at this age?

They get scrapped (after being stripped for parts) or exported, like any ICE. Where are you getting this from about Leafs? They're certainly worth a lot more with the battery in them. You need to be more specific.

My objection is PCP isnt green or ethical (neither is scrappage of perfectly good cars). We've probably exhausted that, I thought it was a simple concept. My points below and in the thread about car manufacture being tailored to PCP highlight the green/ethical aspect.

OK, sure. It's a new car every 3 or whatever years. PCP is certainly an enabler for that kind of behaviour.

I agree cars _should_ last longer than 5 or 6 years (I drive a 12, 19 and 22 year old vehicles) but my entire point is that are they being allowed to?

Sure. So I'll ask - are you willing to pay more for your used cars, as a result of people buying fewer new cars (supply/demand)?

Yes, they are, after years of expansion, hence my posts about pcp affecting it with the credit withdrawal. This will probably continue.

I don't know anything about a credit withdrawal that you keep mentioning. But how do you explain the crash in diesel sales? Is that because people are allowed a PCP on a petrol, but not a diesel? Are you sure it's this supposed credit withdrawal going on, or is it a lot of doubt about one form of fuel, a new form of fuel coming in, consumer confidence etc.?

again Im asking for help in actually sourcing info on if this is the case or if like dieselgate its manipulation of the market?

Sorry, no, I don't. If you're accusing motor manufacturers of trying to sell cars or make profits, they're certainly guilty of that.

I know ;-) Ive a funny feeling we actually know each other!

Hmmmmmmmmm....

Ive probably strayed more now into the finance aspect than I wanted to ;-) but my point was to discuss the pcp and how its changed the car industry from a green and ethical perspective.

See also: credit cards, subscription systems etc. We're a much more credit based society that we used to be.

Rx8 is probably a bad example tbh, since they are almost a 2 stroke with the amount of engine oil they need to burn to keep the rotary engine happy

I ran one. The amount of oil used varies between cars, but they do so by design - mine used hardly any and certainly got driven as intended! I'd check every couple of months and rarely needed to top up. If you're worried about the cost of topping up oil, you can't afford the petrol!! Post 2006 350z, TT V6 and loads of others are far more expensive to run than they need to be, because of the eye watering 'road tax' they have to pay.

I was most surprised by the rapid growth of MHEVs compared with the growth in EVs.

Don't be - it's just the 'normal' engines with an electronics upgrade, and it helps with the fuel efficiency tests. People can buy them barely knowing they're in one. They're the cars people have been buying all along, so I wouldn't call it a change in behaviour more than people buying cars with curtain airbags - they're not choosing curtain airbags, they're just there! I guess there will be a marketing advantage to being able to use the word 'hybrid' on a car.

2+ car families. Pretty much impossible to charge 2 EVs to any decent level overnight without access to a 2nd domestic supply (or equivalent infrastructure)

Disagree. I've got a 30kWh car, and a 7kW charger (thanks, Renault!) - 7kW is about the best you can do on a domestic supply. If I had 2 of these cars, and they both came home completely empty , it would take, say 5 hours to charge one on the 7kW charger (7x4=28, and give an extra hour for the last 2kW). That leaves the other one using a granny lead. Leave it overnight, say 20.00 to 08.00. 12 hours, 2kW, 24kWh into the battery. It's 80% full. That's over 200 miles worth between the two cars. So as long as but users aren't mile-munchers, it's plenty. When cars get bigger batteries it'll be more of a problem, but still not a problem, IMO.

As per the previous BEV threads there is self discharge and vampire draw and charging inefficiencies

As I told you in the other thread, I think your vampire draw figues are for Teslas with lots of functions enabled. 50% extra charge per mile is not typical of all EVs. Stop it!

joefizz

ABrass wrote: »

The talk about not being able to charge two EVs is a little odd. Most people don't need to do a full charge every night.

For it to be a problem you've got to have a situation where two or more cars are flat and can't make it to a fast charger and you must have the power for first thing the next day. Not impossible but it stinks of fear mongering.

Have a look at the reports from Norway about EV take up from their generous subsidy scheme.
Overwhelmingly EVs were bought by wealthier families as a 2nd car. Climate required an ICE main car.

2nd car overwhelmingly replaced public transport and cycling journeys (big drop off in public transport usage).
Increase in 2nd cars meant increase in congestion, increase in parking issues without the increase in revenue (no toll fees, free parking, no tax etc).
Anyone who has driven in Norway knows how expensive it is to drive around on petrol, so revenue lost there and the resulting change in electricity generation, all at a cost.


The end result was an increase in greenhouse gas emissions.... ...the subsidy was fine in theory but in practice it was used in a way that it wasnt designed for but in retrospect should have been considered.



Thats not fear mongering, just human nature and people adapting and using the system. Anyone with kids is going to think twice about having both electric cars in case they get sick, anyone with elderly/sick relatives a distance away is going to think twice about 2nd or first electric vehicle.
Thats not fear mongering, just how people think.

joefizz

Martyn1981 wrote: »

As Eric has worked out, the combo of fast charger and granny charger would work fine,

No.
One parked on the drive, one parked on the street.... its sometimes the simple things that get overlooked.

1961Nick

Anyone that has 2 EVs that regularly need a significant charge, will most likely be on an EV or E7 tariff & would probably charge the vehicles during the early hours of the morning. That would still leave 10 kWh for the rest of the house & most people don't use that much to cook Christmas lunch let alone at 3.00am.