Jelly's will questions

Jellywobble123 · 3 February 2010 at 2:54PM

I have been reading your thread with great interest as since my father died in december 09 my sister & I are in a similar position. Wife No 2 not happy with the contacts of Dads Will leaving her 50k & the house & rest to us & grandchildren,has,since his diagnosis with alzheimers been transferring his wealth into accounts in her name and then in april 2008 when Dad was well into his illness the Will was changed leaving everything to her.Obviously we are contesting but I think we will struggle to prove how much money she has transferred into her accounts that was destined for us until the will was changed. It looks like it will cost a small fortune as initial enquiries with the drafting solicitor & medical evidence is set to cost us £2,000 plus.

Any ideas anyone???

simpywimpy · 3 February 2010 at 2:58PM

Hi Jelly. Was the money of your dads in a joint account with his wife? If so there is nothng you can do I'm afraid

If it was an account solely in your dads name then you can look into the reasons why any withdrawals were made. Even if she had a power of attourney, she cant just take money regardless. Who is the executor of your dads will? Maybe the cost of having the missing money clarified could come out of the estate itself rather than you personally?

Jellywobble123 · 3 February 2010 at 3:39PM

The money was originally in an account in my Dads name but was then changed to a joint account due to his failing health (excuse!) so his wife could write cheques etc.She also had power of attorney.I accept she had every right technically to then transfer the money into her name out of a joint account which is galling.Dad had been with her several years and it was only when his health was failing that he agreed to have a joint account with her.(maybe he didnt trust her??!!)
The executors of my Dads will are my nephew and the solicitors who drew up the last will.
Wife has already promised my nephew and his sister (the 2 eldest grandchildren) 25k each if they persuade their mother & I to not contest the latest Will.
So far she has made us 2 offers one of £100k each and another of £150k each...she seems to be desperate to get us off her back for some reason,but we're not going anywhere no matter what she offers us! We believe she has alot more stashed away that should have come to us.
Its a good point suggesting the costs come out of the estate itself because to be quite honest we'd rather the tax man or costs take the money than her.This is not what Dad wanted as per his previous Will in 1998 where he left her 50k and the house,his tocks and shares to the grandchildren and the reside to my sister & I. The stocks & shares have been recently sold,who knows for what price and the grandchildren were given £6k each ...but that may be a drop in the ocean to what they were actually sold for. Another reason why she had to get the Will changed.
It was heartbreaking to see the state of my Dads "signature" on the changed Will of April 2008.He didnt even fill in the date himself.The solicitor etc came to the house because he was so ill and she was there at the time.Im sure that cant be legal and our solicitor is of the same opinion.He has requested the solicitors notes because there is no way my Dad could have phoned them to make the appointment,and spent ages discussing changing his will,when he sadly didnt know what day it was at that time.He couldnt wash,dress,cut up his own food or hold a conversation and could hardly walk.The fact that he held a pen to sign his name amazes us too and we wonder if he had "help" with that.

Errata · 3 February 2010 at 4:17PM

Jellywobble - a couple of things spring to mind. If your dad made his last will after a diagnosis of dementia was made then there may be good grounds to challenge it. His GP may have noted in your dad's case notes that he was developing dementia some time before the 'formal' diagnosis. I think your solicitor may be able to seek sight of the case notes.

The second thing is that if an attorney acts improperly and not in the best interests of the person they are attorney for then the Office of the Public Guardian can be called in to investigate.

HTH, rotten situation for you.

Jellywobble123 · 3 February 2010 at 5:51PM

his GP referred him to the mental health team in 2005 and was on medication for alzheimers from November 2006.Our solicitors are getting the medical evidence from both those sources.

can you explain the public guardian thing a bit more??
Thanks

when you say "attorney" do you mean power of attorney?

Errata · 3 February 2010 at 6:15PM

Good to see your solicitors are on the ball regarding his capacity to make a will

Yes, I did mean power of attorney. More info on an attorney's duties here http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/decisions/being-attorney-epa.htm#whatare

RAS · 3 February 2010 at 6:24PM

Jellywobble123 wrote: »

his GP referred him to the mental health team in 2005 and was on medication for alzheimers from November 2006.Our solicitors are getting the medical evidence from both those sources.

can you explain the public guardian thing a bit more??
Thanks

when you say "attorney" do you mean power of attorney?

Ouch. You need to read here http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/ unless you are in Scotland

And to speak to the PG's office.

Sounds like this might have been an old style power of attorney? If so, did 2nd wife inform you and sib that she was being granted attorneyship?

If the PG get involved she will have to justify every single transfer of money from dad's account to the joint account. if this was not to pay for his care, then she is in trouble.

Attornies can only use the money they are carign for for the benefit of the donor. They cannot for instance buy themsleves a Christmas present with the money, although they can buy a small present for a grandchild at Chrsitmas, if this was what the donor used to do.

Jellywobble123 · 3 February 2010 at 6:45PM

Hi Ras,
Over 12 months ago I asked her if she was managing ok (financially) and how was she paying bills etc as I knew of the fact they did not have a joint account and she (supposedly) had no money herself.She then admitted she had got power of attorney but im not sure which.We were suspicious then as we would have expected that my sister,who lives locally,would have been joint attorney,but she just fobbed us off ,as usual, making the "oh I didnt want to bother you" excuse..
..This was around the same time that the joint account was set up. Its from the joint account that the family money has been moved ..is she not allowed to move monies from a joint account? A previous reply stated she could move money without any problems.
Does the situation change because she had power of attorney and therefore it changes her ability on how she used the funds in a joint account?
I know as power of attorney she cant use funds in an account in Dads sole name for other purposes than his care etc but we are talking about a JOINT account.....

As we are not in communication with her is there any way I can find out when the power of attorney was taken out and what type it was?

Errata · 3 February 2010 at 6:47PM

An attorney will have to justify their reasons for not setting up an account to keep the donor's money and any property separate from hers, as well as justifying what they have spent the money on.

Jellywobble123 · 3 February 2010 at 6:53PM

how do you determine which money belongs to who though in a joint account when the account holders are married?

RAS · 3 February 2010 at 7:04PM

This is England and Wales, system in Scotland is different.

Jellywobble123 wrote: »

Hi Ras,
Over 12 months ago I asked her if she was managing ok (financially) and how was she paying bills etc as I knew of the fact they did not have a joint account and she (supposedly) had no money herself.

She then admitted she had got power of attorney but im not sure which......

You need to ring the PG and ask them if 2nd wife has ever obtained POA on behalf your father, under the new or the old version.

Under both the old and new systems, the attorney has to regsiter the EPA/POA with the PG/Court of Protection as soon as the donor becomes incapable. Doing otherwise renders their actions invalid. In both cases certain people have to be informed; under the old rules, you and sister would be included, under the new one, those who the donor has specified to be notified. Those notified can object and I know one instance personally when the objector became an attorney as a result.

Jellywobble123 wrote: »

We were suspicious then as we would have expected that my sister,who lives locally,would have been joint attorney,but she just fobbed us off ,as usual, making the "oh I didnt want to bother you" excuse..

..This was around the same time that the joint account was set up. Its from the joint account that the family money has been moved ..is she not allowed to move monies from a joint account? A previous reply stated she could move money without any problems. .....

I strongly suspect that she does not actually have POA. I suspect that she somehow managed to get herself as second segnatory on the sole account and used that to transfer the money.

The chances are the bank would see it going into a joint account and not worry.

Jellywobble123 wrote: »

Does the situation change because she had power of attorney and therefore it changes her ability on how she used the funds in a joint account?
I know as power of attorney she cant use funds in an account in Dads sole name for other purposes than his care etc but we are talking about a JOINT account.....

Hi As attorney, she would not NEED to move funds into the joint account because she wouold be able to pay all the bills from the sole account.

As attorney, if she moved money to the joint account, it could ONLY be in order to pay the bills. If she removed money from the sole account for any other reason, she would be in breach of her responsibilites as an attorney.

i think you need to start your own thread by the way. Maybe pm MrsTine and ask her to set it up for you?

Jelly's will questions

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