Good Citizen Dog Scheme - Any Experience?

whitevanwoman

Rigg (the pig) got his gold several years ago and we have both really benefitted from the training both at the time and since. You've had loads of really good advice so best thing I can suggest is ask around for personal recommendations re clubs and trainers, try out several if possible before committing to the one which you and your dog prefer.

Find out what "triggers" your dog positively - in Rigg's case it's food and attention - initially "treating" with tit bits worked well but I found that he tended to become over-excited with food so I gradually reduced the tit bits and replaced it with attention, in the form of a touch of my hand on his nose, a special "well done" word or a specific training toy (tennis ball) depending on the circumstances.

The best advice I was ever given was from a police dog handler who advised using the "a" sound (pronounced the same way as "a" in the word "hat") - this noise is quick and easy to make, and is a signal to the dog that what he/she is doing something which is not good. I now use it all the time, and it has replaced a number of negative commands such as "no", "get down (off the settee), "stop pulling", "leave it alone" etc. If the dog doesn't respond to this, it can be backed up by a stronger disruptive signal (clap your hands, stamp a foot, slap your hand on the table) - this helps distract the dog from what its doing and you can get its attention back to you again. Some people use keys or special discs to do the same thing but I always forget to have them handy, and the most important thing with both positive and negative training is timing so that the message you are giving the dog refers to the action he has just done or is doing. It is too late to reward or admonish the dog for an action which took place more than about 15 secs ago as it will not understand what the reward or admonishment is for or may be doing something by then. If you miss the timing, ignore the behaviour and move on.

The other thing that really works with rigg is isolation - the equivalent of the naughty step - he thrives on interaction so depriving him of that is an effective punishment. At dog club if he didn't behave nicely with other dogs, I simply removed him from the hall and put him in the broom cupboard for 5 mins. After a few times of doing this, I could see him starting to make the connection between growling at another dog, and missing out on having fun, and within about 6 or 8 times of doing this he stopped doing it completely. I have an outside kennel at home in the yard and if he has been bad (like stealing a loaf of bread off the kitchen worktop) he is sent out into his kennel for a couple of hours. He now goes to his kennel of his own accord when he's been bad, which is when I start looking for the remains of an empty bread bag on the floor!

Make training sessions fun and the dog will respond more positively - incorporate bits of training into your daily routine so that the stuff you do at dog club is reinforced regularly and becomes a natural part of the dog's behaviour around the house and when out and about. Sometimes its really difficult when other people are around and you become distracted and the dog will sense that and take advantage, so ignore the people and focus on the dog if you can.

Sorry, this was just meant to be a quick post & I've probably repeated alot of what other people have said cos I just skim read through the other posts but rigg's been with a dogsitter today who said that he was really well behaved, easy to handle and they'd had alot of fun together and I was so relieved that rigg hadn't shown me up and that the training had paid off. Makes life so much easier. Stick with it, its not always easy, be patient and consistent, use the same commands, keep them simple and use tone of voice - the dog responds more to how you say things than what you say.

Above all, have fun!

whitevanwoman

PS - I've never hit him, shouted at him or used any kind of aggressive behaviour towards him- his isolation "punishment" is done quietly but firmly, without any kind of attention, I simply remove him from the situation and make it clear I'm not happy by saying "grumble grumble grumble" in a deep growly voice. This works for rigg, who I was lucky to get as a puppy from a very happy loving home, but it may not work for a rescue dog who has had traumatic experiences of being locked up.

Having now read the previous post by pboae, I agree with the importance of reading your dogs body language. The broom cupboard isolation worked because I was watching and ready to remove him whenever he started to display early signs of aggression (he is quarter staffy, half collie - both breeds can show aggressive behaviour during puberty - I also made sure he was neutered at 12 months) - the main thing is not to let things develop into confrontation.

MrsTinks

Thanks pboae

Interesting approach and one I think could work with Kira if only I could convince people to work their dogs nearby when working her... Unfortunately those in our village either have worse behaved dogs, designer dogs or have super well trained dogs and frankly aren't interested in training even to help out. There is ONE dog that I'd like to work with as he has problems too but his owners alas are too lazy (the dog is obese and never gets walked so thought it would be a huge advantage to get a bit of exercise) so that's not happening either. I can't go back to classes due to working commitments.

I might go back to basics with the clicker training again and speak nicely to my neighbour and see if he'll work his police dog in the same field as I work Kira whilst doing basic heel work on the lead and rewarding with the clicker... Hmmmm

Hey always open to ideas

Anyone got any ideas on how to stop her wanting to play with the cats?
Not nastily she just doesn't understand that they don't play when you playbow at them and hissing means "back off pooch"... daft animal

Sammy_Girl

Thank you all for your replies :beer:

You've all been a great help. Teddy and I are going to visit the club tonight and have a chat with the trainers, so hopefully all will go well. I totally agree with the positive enforcement. I use the loud "ah" when he does something naughty and he recognises that. Teddy is 100% motivated by food, so we have a little bag of titbits that we use for training. He is really good when we are around other dogs when we're outside of the home, but he definitely doesn't like it when other dogs approach our house! Must be a territory thing!!

Thank you for all your advice, and I'll let you know how we get on

Sammy x

WeirdoMagnet

whitevanwoman wrote: »

put him in the broom cupboard for 5 mins.

:eek::eek::eek:

I can't say I've ever heard that recommended. I've heard of a time-out, but putting your dog in the broom cupboard is rather extreme! Just removing your dog from the room will have the same effect, and will be less damaging than shutting him in a samll dark space.

Also, instead of using a non-reward reward marker 'all the time', why not teach your dog - using positive methods of course - what you want him to do and what is acceptable?

whitevanwoman

To Georgina

Like I said, it worked for us but might not work for other dogs with problems. and to me it seemed preferable to shouting at the dog, or using brute force to keep him to heel and away from another dog or making a big thing of a situation. Negative attention for rigg is as much of a reward as positive attention & so depriving him of any attention at all has always been the best way to signify my displeasure with his behaviour. The "broom cupboard" was actually a store room with a window (although it was night time and therefore dark) and was the only place in the building where there were no other people or dogs around. Had he shown any sign of distress with this, I would not have continued with it. If I had got him as a rescue dog showing problematic behaviour or with a known history of abuse, the training methods chosen would have been carefully selected so as not to inadvertently reinforce the negative experiences of his past.

For a clever dog which continually tests boundaries, marking those boundaries is essential, which is where the "a" sound comes in - I see it as the mother dog letting the pup know when its going too far, non-disciplinary, simply guidance. I may not be the perfect dog trainer but I've eliminated alot of unnecessary commands. For example, despite the training, I still have a problem with him jumping up at people excaberated by well meaning people who encourage it by saying "I don't mind, I'm a dog person too" (unfortunately the dog can't distinguish between a dog person and someone who's pregnant, or someone in their best togs, or a friendly but frail elderly person) and so by a well-timed "a" I can usually stop him in his tracks at the point at which he was showing the body language indicating excitement at attention from someone which might mean him jumping up at them. Over time he is gradually showing less tendancy to doing this. Also, like I said, I continually use positive rewards in the form of touch, praise words and interaction. Maybe I should have said I "often" use the "a" noise, instead of I use it "all the time".

It is difficult not to react to what you see as criticism of yourself and your methods - in the same way as a parent would probably react to someone telling them what is a good or not good way of bringing up their kids but the proof is in the pudding - rigg is a well balanced, friendly, obedient, easy to handle dog with no major hang ups.

The worst thing about him is his tendancy to steal anything edible if he thinks he can get away with it (he only does it at night time or if left alone - I can put his food bowl down in front of him and tell him to leave it for 5 mins and he won't touch it until I say he can). I put this food fixation down to the unknown quarter of his heritage (his dad was a working sheepdog, his mother half staffie and I think half labrador, which explains the food fixation). It simply means that I have to be smarter than him and not put temptation in his way - so I see it as my fault most of the time, not his, if he does steal the loaf of bread I'd left out overnight to defrost. He knows when he's done wrong though and puts himself in his kennel without me having to send him there.

If you want to know more, rigg has his own blog at www.etribes.com/riggthepig

pboae

MrsTine wrote: »

Thanks pboae

Interesting approach and one I think could work with Kira if only I could convince people to work their dogs nearby when working her... Unfortunately those in our village either have worse behaved dogs, designer dogs or have super well trained dogs and frankly aren't interested in training even to help out.

Thanks, MrsT,

I have the same problem round by me (except that I don't meet any super well trained dogs :rolleyes: ). I was lucky to find a class run by someone who is qualified as both a behaviourist and a trainer, *and* was willing to work with us as well. Other than that, I would rather pay the extra, and go to a trainer for one to one sessions with stooge dogs, at least until I had the initial stages under control. Training in an uncontrolled environment makes everything so much harder, but sometimes there is no other option.

I don't know how you go about training them to leave cats (other than by teaching them a strong 'leave' command, but I generally find that only really works if you are on hand to say it when needed). If you are interested though, I can try to find out for you. I know people who have trained ex racing greys to be cat safe, so I can ask out how they did it.

Hopefully it doesn't involve locking them in cupboards.


Sammy_Girl, do let us know how it goes. One thing you might find useful for training is to 'grade' your rewards, so for my dog it goes from plain kibble, through fruit and veg up to cheese and liver cake. Varying the 'value' of the reward can be very helpful in training.

whitevanwoman

Ok guys - lets just get one thing straight - I do not lock my dog in a cupboard.
I found isolation a useful tool in a specific situation and used it on 6-8 occasions.
I do not "recommend" that everyone does this - it worked for me.
The broom cupboard was a store room approx 6 ft by 10 ft which happened to be where the brooms were stored.
Next time I post I will choose my words extremely careful so as not to be judged - in fact, I probably won't bother posting at all seeing as everyone seems to think my methods are totally unsuitable.
Water sprays totally freak rigg out and I would see that as a totally unsuitable method - each to their own, eh?

MrsTinks

Livercake... I HATE livercake :rotfl: Kira loves it but oh my does my house stink after I've made it!!!!

pboae I'd be very interested in how they managed to make racing greys "small furry" safe.
Kira is VERY good at the leave command.... so long as it's food. You enter a cat into the mix and forget it! I think she believes they're mini dogs and as she ignores me when it comes to dogs then I'm on to a looser with that one at the moment. I'm not too worried as her behaviour isn't aggressive it's 100% play. We've had several scartched noses but she doesn't learn (daft animal!)
I've got a 2 hour assessment session with a very reputable trainer in July so I'm hoping she's worth the money and can point me in the right direction about how to correct Kira properly and re-direct her energy.
I'm also increasing her exercise (she gets a short morning walk, a 45 minute lunch walk where she is basically run into the ground by her dog walker, and the evening walk length depends on weather, how knackered I am and what time I get in) with any luck to include running alongside me on a bike (I don't do running). With more exercise she should hopefully be easier to handle too as she won't have loads of pent up collie energy (Collie/GSD cross)

MrsTinks

whitevanwoman wrote: »

Ok guys - lets just get one thing straight - I do not lock my dog in a cupboard.
I found isolation a useful tool in a specific situation and used it on 6-8 occasions.
I do not "recommend" that everyone does this - it worked for me.
The broom cupboard was a store room approx 6 ft by 10 ft which happened to be where the brooms were stored.
Next time I post I will choose my words extremely careful so as not to be judged - in fact, I probably won't bother posting at all seeing as everyone seems to think my methods are totally unsuitable.
Water sprays totally freak rigg out and I would see that as a totally unsuitable method - each to their own, eh?

I think it was merely the way you posted it that came across as if you stuck your dog in a tiny broomcupboard (which let's face it most places don't have 6x10 broomcupboards so we don't tend to visualise a largeish room)

Yes I've tried isolation too and still do with Kira when we have guests. If she gets too excited she gets put in the hall way, first with the door open and "blocked" only by commands. If she can't help herself but carries on trying to run about like a loon I just go and close the door till she calms down.