Good Citizen Dog Scheme - Any Experience?

Sammy_Girl

Hello all,

I have a 2 year old crossbreed who attended puppy training classes when he was much younger but didn't respond too well with them. I am now looking to enrol him on the Kennel Club Good Citizen Dog Scheme. I have found a local club who offer this course from Bronze through to Gold level. Has anyone attended these classes? If so, I would appreciate any comments?

Many thanks in advance.

Sammy x

MrsTinks

Yup we're Gold level

It's good - especially if you look at this as an oppertunerty to socialise your dog and learning a few basic things along the way. Kira although now a "gold" dog still has issues with other dogs when out walking and that's being dealt with seperately so don't expect a "cure all" type training

Is it worth doing? Well I think so Also great for meeting other doggy people and possibly meeting up for walkies etc which will do your doggy a world of good

Sammy_Girl

Thanks MrsTine

Congratulations on your Gold status !! I emailed the club today asking when the next Bronze course starts, and I am going to visit the club tomorrow evening. They seem like a very friendly bunch. Teddy is a good dog, there are just a few points that I would like to refine and I think this scheme would be good for him. Also the more I watch Dog Borstal, the more I think that we should be doing activities together other than our usual walking. I just want him to be happy and keep his mind active!!

Sammy x

pboae

I've done it up to Bronze, I can't decide whether to carry on with Silver or not, because my old trainer has moved away so we'd have to find a new class.

It is really just obedience training in a KC wrapper, so that all the classes cover roughly the same thing. Being KC approved is not a guarantee of quality though, and any class will only be as good as the trainer who leads it.

As with any training class, once you've been to some sessions talk to the other owners and the trainer and decide whether you are happy with them and the methods they use.

Misty_Blue

I've done Gold with two of mine and am soon to take the Silver test with another. It's definitely worthwhile doing (in fact I would make obedience training compulsory for all dog owners if I ruled the world! ).

Every trainer will train differently to achieve the same ends though, so make sure you're happy with their approach before starting, especially if your dog hasn't enjoyed classes in the past.

Good luck!

WeirdoMagnet

Me & Tilly have done Bronze - I would like to have a go a Silver too, but we've moved and am struggling to find a training class round here.

It's worth doing, but as others have said make sure that you're happy with the training methods used - although the qualification is from the Kennel Club, anyone can deliver the training. Personally I would only go to a class who used positive training methods, and wouldn't go to one that uses choke chains/rattle bottles/water sprays etc. A good guide is to check whether your trainer is a member of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers.

MrsTinks

Agree on choke chains and rattle bottles - don't personally see a problem with watersprays being used to distract the dogs when they go red zone before they learn to socialise... Unless it's my dog of course... unfortunately she loves it so thinks it's a reward *sigh*

elsien

I did the bronze level - it was worth going to just to socialise her around other dogs. (Slightly dispiriting to see mutt behaving impeccably with the trainer and ignoring me, but then she played silly b's with him as well, and I felt better when he said she was the most pig-headed dog he'd had to deal with in a long time!)
Didn't do silver partly coz my shifts changed, but also because there were some things I just knew we were never going to manage, however long I went for. (Trying to call the dog past a bowl of food still lingers as a bad memory.) Would still recommend it though as a basic training tool.

pboae

MrsTine wrote: »

Agree on choke chains and rattle bottles - don't personally see a problem with watersprays being used to distract the dogs when they go red zone before they learn to socialise... Unless it's my dog of course... unfortunately she loves it so thinks it's a reward *sigh*

I don't see watersprays as any different to rattle bottles. Dogs will respond differently to them. Some will think they are interesting/rewarding (as yours does with a spray), some will be totally indifferent to them, some will see them as a neutral distracter (in which case there are plenty of other neutral distracters you can use, with training) and some will see it as a punishment. Of those that see it as a punishment, there will be another range; from those who find it mild to those who find it disproportionally distressing.

For those unlucky enough to find their dog falls into the last category (and it is not a tiny minority by any means), by the time they find out, the damage may well already be done. (i.e. they have suffered a 'severe' punishment when other dogs were around, and now associate other dogs with punishment). Why risk it when there are less potentially damaging options?

MrsTinks

What other less potentially damaging options?

Sorry pboae - you know I don't mean that nastily Although you and I often sit on different sides of the fence I'm genuinely interested in what methods other people find more effective I might not agree but that's because I base my views on my own experiences - I might one day own a dog that responds better to other training methods so I just want to know all the possibilities there are and what others have found to work for them
As you say dogs respond in widely different ways - some people mgith for example use a walking stick in front of the dog to guide it to not walk in front of them (not hitting i hasten to add! just as a physical barrier to make the dog recognise the "line") but if I was to do that with Kira she's freak as she has a deep fear of sticks, brooms and mops... I'll leave you to guess the reasons why but she has had that fear since we adopted her from the RSPCA....

pboae

I know :-) and I thought after I posted that that it might come across as confrontational, but I didn't mean it that way either.

As you know, I will only use positive training methods. Aside from the moral/emotional issues, I'm a cognitive psychologist by training, and it has long been established that positive variable reinforcement schedules are by far the most effective conditioning programmes. Training is essentially operant conditioning, no matter how it is wrapped it up.

With positive training the worst you can do is accidentally reinforce the wrong thing, or not reinforce anything at all. Either of which are relatively easy to 'fix'. With punishment based training, if it goes wrong the end result can be devastating for everyone concerned.

Also, there is nothing you can train with punishment that you cannot train with positive training, yet there are many things that you can train positively, that cannot be trained with punishment.

To give a specific example, my dog was very dog aggressive when he first came to us (also a rescue, and spent his first 2 years locked in a shed too small for him to stand properly, so no socialisation at all, and also having been beaten and starved). He would go absolutely ballistic if a dog got within several feet of him, and I have no doubt that he really meant it. It wasn't just bared teeth and hot air.

He was written off by several behaviourists (including someone who is supposed to be one of the best in the country), and I was told he would never be safe around other dogs. I found another behaviourist/trainer who was willing to work with us. To begin with we couldn't even be in the same field as the other dogs. We started on the far side of one field while they trained on the far side of the next field, with a hedge and fence in between.

I use clicker training, so I can reward desired behaviour with a click & treat. Initially he wouldn't even take food off me (which is unheard of for him) because he was so wound up, but I could still mark the behaviour I wanted with the click. Gradually he improved and relaxed, and then I could start to reward him with treats as well, then we moved closer to the fence, again over time, each time only going as close as he could handle before he started reacting. After a while we were able to move into the same field, and eventually we were able to join a group, and he got his bronze GC there.

The alternative approach would have been to take him straight into a group and punish him whenever he reacted to another dog. Aside from that being a very stressful and unpleasant situation for both of us, I think it would have made him a very dangerous dog. Dogs that are punished for reacting learn not to react, but it doesn't change their underlying feelings. I know now that he is relaxed and confident around other dogs, he's not just supressing his tension and anxiety about it.

By going through that process I also learned a huge amount about his body language and he learned how to 'talk' to me, some dogs are naturally good at that, but his signals are very subtle, and we both had to learn how it works. I can tell now when he is finding a situation too much, and will remove him from it immediately. If I had punished him not to show me how he felt, how would I know when things were beginning to escalate? Until it got too much for him and he snapped (literally and figuratively), by which time it would be too late.

That is a very brief summary of how we did it. He still has some issues (related to his health problems) which can only ever be managed, not 'cured'. But I can now walk him within inches of another dog and he will either ignore it, or keep his eyes fixed on me, whichever I ask of him.


EDIT to say: should have said that the above is an adaptation of the Food Bar method for dealing with dog - dog aggression.