phorm/webwise

gingernut21

normanmark wrote: »

Sorry but if you believe that the above isn't happening already then you're naive. The only issue here is the companies selling this information to make money.

But then the example counter-argument is if you're not doing anything criminal you shouldn't have anything to worry about?

Please justify your statement - who is doing this at an ISP level?

gingernut21

normanmark wrote: »

The only issue here is the companies selling this information to make money.

No the issues here are:

• interception of communications, an offence contrary to section 1 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000
• fraud, an offence contrary to section 1 of the Fraud Act 2006
• unlawful processing of sensitive personal data, contrary to the Data Protection Act 1998

http://www.fipr.org/press/080423phorm.html

Alfie_E

BexTech wrote: »

I've been surprised at the lack of interest too..

I’ve tried to get people’s attention. I even tried to get the attention of Martin S Lewis Ltd staff, as I feel the company have a commercial interest in preserving the privacy of their website’s users. So far, none of us have managed to make much of an impact.

I’m not completely surprised. This is a website for money saving, not privacy preserving. I don’t use loyalty cards or cashback sites. Nevertheless, I know many MSEers do.

This isn’t a criticism of Martin’s overall approach. Privacy is outside the scope of MSE. If it were brought into the mix, it would risk producing a confused muddle. I’ve explained to Phorm that they’re doing it all wrong. Forcing it upon British customers is guaranteed to cause resentment. Setting up separate Webwise products, with financial incentives for using them, stands a much better chance. If it were offered like that, I could even see Martin suggesting it as an acceptable way to save money, with the usual caveats. Look at the colossal size of MSE, then compare it to privacy-related fora. I don’t have an enormous amount of confidence in the British public; I fear we’re too easily bribed.

This doesn’t address the legality of what Phorm are proposing. However, the proposition isn’t fundamentally illegal. Explicit consent could be sought from both parties. Alternatively, software could be placed on users’ computers, making it a relay rather than interception. Although, in that case, we’re moving backwards, towards ContextPlus and PeopleOnPage.

normanmark

gingernut21 wrote: »

Please justify your statement - who is doing this at an ISP level?

Every ISP has the facility to trace what sites/traffic a user has been viewing. The only time they can do that is if theres a court order.

My point was that this facility has existed from day one of being able to track who does what. Every time you request a page you're leaving a footprint. The only difference is that the ISP can't actually do anything with the footprint until they're legally requested to do so.

Hanco

@ normanmark who said...
The only issue here is the companies selling this information to make money.

Sorry, but this is wrong normanmark! gingernut21 was right about the legal issues but what you miss is the longer term issue...

As soon as companies like Phorm get into the place they want to be that's it, no going back.

I apologise now for going 'techie' but I'll only do it for this paragraph for some people who like to know where to start looking for 'How this will work' and know where to start. Phorm will be at 'Layer 7' on the network. Seeing everything and able to categorise everything you do - "All your internet actions" (to quote the CEO of Phorm).

~~ Exit 'techie' bit!! ~~

Once Phorm are in place with your ISP, and they have got around the legal issues that we think there are now, that's when they start to look at how they maximise the huge costs they have invested getting there...

This means "Mission Creep" - they start to try what they said they were not planning to do when they started.

This means... here's a scenario:

Your ISP has your name and address. You spend, out of the blue, an hour or two on the web, using search engines to look up information about cancer. You or a relative has unfortunately just been diagnosed with it. An hour on Wikipedia, Google, Yahoo and NHS Direct, reading up about the issues, medical history, treatments, living with cancer etc.

Phorm, thanks to your ISP, categorises all your internet actions and despite saying they were not interested back in 2008, it's now 2015 and they're pushing the boundaries again (maybe they have permission, maybe they don't!) And yes, they sell this info on to advertisers.

You are now a bigger risk for health insurance. Apply for it, just a quote and any insurer is naturally going to be happier if Phorm will sell them your browsing habits recently.

Now it may be it was your father who was diagnosed with this. But the fact you browsed and spent time on it, well, it just increases the risk over someone who hasn't. And since there's increasing evidence of genetic links and cancer, well it's useful to asses who you are when you want a quote...

Legal issues there are, I agree on that. But no, the only issue here is NOT that the companies are selling this information to make money. It's got much wider implications for the future.

12,000+ signatures on the Downing Street website. That's the 6th biggest petition at this time.

I'm no scaremonger, this is anti-moneysaving for everyone except the CEO of Phorm!!

If you do not have shares in Phorm, please consider signing today...
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/

(I won't start about the 'illegal' trials by BT in 2007 and 2006, there are more appropriate fora for that but I'll come back if there's money to be made claiming from your ISP for being spied on without your permission!)

hanco

Meltdown_2

Hanco,
how secure (i.e. private) is our personal data, if we enter it onto the government e-petition website?

DatabaseError

oh well, long (for me) post just got lost, so here's the summary..
Oldbear - use the search function, this topic has been brought up a few times by myself and others
Hanco - Excellent post!
Meltdown - The data on the Gvmt petition site is as secure as any - very secure until something goes wrong. (I take privacy very seriously, I use tools to ensure some of my usage isn't accredited to me, yet I signed the petition openly and honestly on the 1st day as I'm more than happy to stand up and be counted)

Just in case anyone is worried, my privacy issues nothing distasteful or illegal, just private.

markyboy7

If this webwise thing takes off, will we be getting a discount?

They are going to watch every thing you do on the web so they can send you adverts, but i've not seen anything about price reductions. Not sure if I want them looking over my shoulder either.

Anyone know anything about this?

Beattie_Modem-Duff

Does this mean they see what I buy or what I look at online?

markyboy7

Beattie_Modem-Duff wrote: »

Does this mean they see what I buy or what I look at online?

I think they look at all the web pages you see so they can work out what you are interested in. Then you get those ads.

I don't think anyone has said how much the discount will be though. It ought to be free if they do that!