NPower gas 'sculpting'

Cardew

Anne3333 wrote: »

We need to try and see if there is some pattern here. I myself am a below average user in general and use very little gas in the summer months as even my cooker is electric. I can see that both between Oct 04 to Oct 05 AND Nov 2005 to Nov 2006, I did not use my full capacity of higher rate units due to my usage. Supposing they calculated that they were losing out on me because of my usage, then sculpting would ensure that I paid the full 4572 higher rate units each year. Anyone else with that kind of pattern?

The whole purpose of the Primary/Secondary unit tariff structure(for all companies) is to ensure that everyone pays a standing charge for their gas/electrity.

So the original reason for 'sculpting'* was undoubtedly to ensure people like you did not 'get away' with paying for very little gas during the summer and thus paying for less than 4,572 primary units.

Some people turned of their gas completely in the summer quarter - if for nothing else to turn off the pilot light -you would be surprised at just how much gas some pilot lights consume.

Other companies like BG have followed this trend to ensure the 'standing charge' is paid in full, by reducing the number of primary units but increasing their price.

* by sculpting I do not mean the 'tariff year' scam.

Anne3333

I have no objection to sculpting as long as I am kept informed and I dont end up being overcharged for higher rate units than my contract states. It is the on/off on/off tariff scam that is driving me mad!

DirectDebacle

Anne3333 wrote: »

I have no objection to sculpting as long as I am kept informed and I dont end up being overcharged for higher rate units than my contract states. It is the on/off on/off tariff scam that is driving me mad!

I fully understand your frustration. As Cardew says it was designed specifically to net low users such as yourself. The sinister side of it is that it not only catches the low users but the vulnerable as well. Many low users, will use no gas in the summer. Poor families, pensioners on fixed low incomes and the like will try to have their consumption at a minimum in order to save for the coming winter months. All this frugality is now to no avail with npower. With an even rate of 1143 per qtr if I used no gas April-Sept and had two 1143 winter qtrs I would pay on my tariff £151.00 for high rate units. Under the npower scheme I pay for those two same qtrs £270. Thats £119 more. Big money if you haven't got much to start with. So I would feel a bit annoyed at sculpting if I were you Anne. As I am a high user sculpting makes no difference as I go way over 4572 a year anyway.

Add to that the on/off/on/tariff year factor and resultant overcharging and I get the feeling we are being treated as a herd of cash cows.

Ofgem should force all the companies to have one unified simple and transparent pricing policy. No D/D discounts, loyalty bonus or other inducements. Just charge us for gas/electricity and they can all compete on price. Ebico have that set up and I like it. Unfortunately they aren't that cheap. Not for me. But they aren't on a level playing field. Anyway ramble over. We need to get our money back from conpower.

Ding Dong round 2.

RM5_2

DirectDebacle wrote: »

I really don't know and gave up long ago trying to work out npowers methodology/philosophy. Like trying to rationalise the irrational. I think Cardew may be onto something. This is what flower petal posted for her bill:


Bill period 17/12/07 - 7/4/08 (113 days)
First 1403 units @ 3.639
remaining unit @2.04

Her high rate units are much lower than mine, almost half. Lower rates almost the same. I have no idea what business rates are but I guess they would be cheaper than domestic tariff. Whatever she is on doesn't alter the fact we have been overcharged. Wish my high rate was the same as hers though.

Additionally, there is no price change on 4/1/2008, where on the standard tariff the primary units went up from 4.415p to 6.688p. In march 08 on sign online v10, the primary units were at 4.925p.
Don't know what they did to the lucky customers on sign online v8. Fiddling Floral Petals, when did you change to nPower and do you still have a bill for the period before 17/12?
The price change on 4/1/2008 is of course also outragous, as it was justified by an increase in wholesale gas prices, but in effect was an increase of the standing charge from 114 to 214 pounds annually, while the secondary units remained relatively cheap.

RM5_2

Cardew wrote: »

So the original reason for 'sculpting'* was undoubtedly to ensure people like you did not 'get away' with paying for very little gas during the summer and thus paying for less than 4,572 primary units.

Exactly. In this respect it is very interesting that they are now changing to two bills per year, as this would achieve exactly the same thing without sculpting (usage from Jan to Jun is very similar to that from July to Dec).
This makes me think that they are already preparing for the time after sculpting, expecting that Ofgem will disallow it altogether, as it obfuscates the bills and thereby allowed npower to operate their on/off/on overcharging scam.

DirectDebacle

RM5 wrote: »

Additionally, there is no price change on 4/1/2008, where on the standard tariff the primary units went up from 4.415p to 6.688p.

Good point. I missed the Jan price change. Maybe she is on some sort of fixed rate. Still doesn't explain why she wasn't 'sculpted'.

I found this posted by an npower sales rep in another thread.

Between now and October 2009, there are 3 'expected' price rises.........Sept 08, March 09, and Sept 09

A bit of insider knowledge of the shape of prices to come?

RM5_2

colonelhall wrote: »

It's the 2 1/2 year argument that they used with me. Since I rejected this on the grounds already explained, they have declined to communicate with me. My last letter pointed out the flaw in their argument and requested a refund of the overcharge.
I still get the occasional letter from Energywatch stating that they are aware of the fact that I am getting no reply.

Simply, I am not taking "no reply" as an answer!

By comparison, the 12-6-12 argument is the strongest one they've got and I wonder why they make themselves a complete laughing stock by claiming to the press that they could charge the full annual allowance over a tariff year that is much shorter than an actual year.
That makes me think they are planning a witness for the prosecution style defense along the lines of
Customer: You cannot charge the full annual allowance over a tariff year that is much shorter than an actual year. By this logic you could charge any number of primary units you liked by resetting often enough. A year is a year!
nPower: Of course you are right. That's why we charged only half the annual allowance over the 6 months tariff year.
Judge: Thanks for clearing up this misunderstanding. Case dismissed.

So we have to be careful to not fall for this trap and build the case on what they actually did.

The on/off/on trick is only really suitable for a one-off overcharging and not easily used for sustained overcharging. It could be done though.

1/5/06 - 1/5/07 on, 12 months, 100% --> OK
1/5/07 - 1/11/07 off, 6 months, 50% --> OK
1/11/07- 1/5/09 on 18 months, 189% --> not OK but can be made to look OK by using the cheap summer 08 twice to justify two expensive winters:
1/11/07-1/11/08 on 12 months, 100% --> OK
1/5/08 - 1/5/09 on 12 months, 100% --> OK, but overlapping with previous period
Now suspend again
1/5/09-1/5/10 off 6 months, 50% --> OK.
and repeat the cycle.
This would allow sustained overcharging of 239% over each 2 year period.

While the "we can reset any time we like" argument is just plain ridiculous, the 12-6-12 argument is a bit more sophisticated. Of course, it is still very easily dismissed and about the same level as the nursery trick of claiming you have 11 fingers by counting from 10 downwards on one hand and from 1 upwards on the other.
Someone at nPower clearly thought they were really clever when divising this scam. They will come to regret it.

DirectDebacle

Good points RM5. We have to challenge what they did. The first points will be not notifying customers the change from a flat rate 4572 to a 'sculpting profile' and the sudden appearance of a 'tariff year'. The judge will have to decide whether either of these changes by npower were within the published terms and conditions. If he rules against them then end of story. If he rules in their favour then the arguments you outline come into play.

In my particular case I have been overcharged since 1st April 2003 to 31st March 2008. That shows a pattern of consistent overcharging before and after sculpting. We cannot argue against sculpting per se but we can argue about the way it was introduced (through the backdoor) and how it has been applied (a steep rise since 1st April 07). The invention of a tariff year will be seen exactly for what it is. A device to attempt to justify the overcharging. They have made it such an integral part of the way they charge for gas that it has to be part of their terms and conditions and clearly defined in them. They will have problems.

If they contest the case then they have to file a defence before the hearing date. The days of producing a surprise witness/evidence like a rabbit out of a hat are long gone. We should be aware of the line of defence well before any hearing. This is deliberately built into the procedure to give both sides the opportunity to settle the matter without going to court.

Interesting times are ahead.

Cardew

DD
Unfortunately(if you know what I mean!!) I am pretty certain NPower will just concede and pay you off, and you won't get your day in court!!

Unless of course you claim huge expenses and damages for stress!!!!!

fiddling_flower_petals

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Good point. I missed the Jan price change. Maybe she is on some sort of fixed rate. Still doesn't explain why she wasn't 'sculpted'.

I found this posted by an npower sales rep in another thread.

Between now and October 2009, there are 3 'expected' price rises.........Sept 08, March 09, and Sept 09

A bit of insider knowledge of the shape of prices to come?

Hi Guys

In answer to several questions raised on this thread:-

Cardew:- I'm not on commerial tarriff, my bill clearly states "Sign Online 8/ monthly Direct debit"

RM5 :- I switched to Npower on 17th Dec 07, so this is my first bill. When Npower increased charges in Jan, I received a letter saying this wouldn't apply to myself. Sorry I can't remember whether this was for all Online VS 8 or just myself as only just recently signed up to Npower. I'll check if I've still kept letter on file but seriously doubt it.

Direct Debarcle :- It isn't fixed tarriff, however I've recently taken advantage of Npower fix for free, which means my tariff is now fixed at rates previously mention until 31st March 09 with no additional premiums.(copy of my bill in post today)