NPower gas 'sculpting'

fiddling_flower_petals

DirectDebacle wrote: »

How long is a years membership for the 'We Hate npower Club'? [joke]

Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding, and I completely sympathise with anybody mis charged by Npower, I believe this not only morally and ethically wrong but will be found to be legally wrong.

I'm not sure if anybody is taking legal action or are you waiting on ofgem, I'd be happy to supply a copy of my bill which proves I'm not currently being sculpted, if it's possible this could help.

Good luck

DirectDebacle

fiddling_flower_petals wrote: »

Thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding, and I completely sympathise with anybody mis charged by Npower, I believe this not only morally and ethically wrong but will be found to be legally wrong.

I'm not sure if anybody is taking legal action or are you waiting on ofgem, I'd be happy to supply a copy of my bill which proves I'm not currently being sculpted, if it's possible this could help.

Good luck

Thank you for that. A bill over the period you have could be very helpful. Comparing it to a 'sculpting' bill over a similar period would show just what an incomprehensible and mis-leading state their charging methods are.

npower received my County Court summons a few days ago. I await their response.

fiddling_flower_petals

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Thank you for that. A bill over the period you have could be very helpful. Comparing it to a 'sculpting' bill over a similar period would show just what an incomprehensible and mis-leading state their charging methods are.

npower received my County Court summons a few days ago. I await their response.

Please PM your address, I'll forward a copy.

Anne3333

DirectDebacle wrote: »

How long is a years membership for the 'We Hate NPower Club'? [joke]

Unlike NPower, our membership lasts for a full MSE Year (365 days and an extra one in Leap Years) or until such time as you are fully reimbursed by NPower. At such time you can choose to remain as an honourary member but should desist in making any complimentary comments regarding the aforementioned NPower on this thread, until all fellow members have been refunded.

Disclaimer
We do not accept liability of any description for any damage or losses to your sanity whatsoever, resulting from membership to this club.

fagun

I've been trying to find nPower's terms and conditions (thorugh mine away when we changed suppliers last year), but can't find them on the website. Does nayone have them - if so please can you post relevant sections here or PM me. Also can anyone confirm if these have changed.

While hunting for the T&C I discovered that nPower subscribe to the Code of Practice on Accurate Bills, which includes:

"The key features on each bill will be:
 Explanation of how the bill has been calculated
 When the payment is due
 How the bill can be paid (all suppliers offer a variety of payment options)
 A clear indication of any change in price
 Ways to contact the supplier with any questions"

I don't believe there has been any explanation about sculpting - so I suppose they fail the code.

c0113tt3

nor any reference to tariff years, or explanation that a tariff year can be few to several months, and not actually a year.

DirectDebacle

fagun wrote: »

I've been trying to find nPower's terms and conditions

Terms and Conditions here: http://www.npower.com/web/At_home/electricity_and_gas/terms_and_conditions/index.htm

Types of Tariff here: http://www.npower.com/web/At_home/electricity_and_gas/types_of_tariff/index.htm

Note on the Types of Tariff they refer to 4572 units per annum. I am assuming that has the same convoluted definition as year. But as that is pure Latin I wouldn't think it could be altered to mean anything other than the true transalation. Cardew is well versed in all matters linguistic and maybe able to clarify.

DirectDebacle

This may be of interest to those considering the court route. I have thought of several arguments to debunk their notion of 'tariff year' without which npower are lost. It came to mind that Latin is frequently used in legal and official documents, the courts, financial etc and for a reason. It leaves no room for ambiguity. The term 'mens rea' needs to be proved in some criminal offences. It means 'guilty mind' and 'mens rea' has to be proved to have existed either before or at the time of the crime.

The term 'per annum' has only one meaning and that is a year of 12 months or 365 days. npower use this term in their Types of Tariff section in relation to 4572 units. The definition of 'tariff' is found at the very end of their terms and conditions in the Definitions section. The tariff is part of their Terms and Conditions which is a legal document. It may well be that a court would view the term 'per annum' as a legal term in a legal document and leave no doubt as to what a 'year' is. I would be grateful if any legal eagles out there could clarify this. I am just working on the theory that the more !!!! you throw the more likely some of it is to stick.

fagun

DirectDebacle wrote: »

This may be of interest to those considering the court route. I have thought of several arguments to debunk their notion of 'tariff year' without which npower are lost. It came to mind that Latin is frequently used in legal and official documents, the courts, financial etc and for a reason. It leaves no room for ambiguity. The term 'mens rea' needs to be proved in some criminal offences. It means 'guilty mind' and 'mens rea' has to be proved to have existed either before or at the time of the crime.

The term 'per annum' has only one meaning and that is a year of 12 months or 365 days. npower use this term in their Types of Tariff section in relation to 4572 units. The definition of 'tariff' is found at the very end of their terms and conditions in the Definitions section. The tariff is part of their Terms and Conditions which is a legal document. It may well be that a court would view the term 'per annum' as a legal term in a legal document and leave no doubt as to what a 'year' is. I would be grateful if any legal eagles out there could clarify this. I am just working on the theory that the more !!!! you throw the more likely some of it is to stick.

More fundamentally, Unfair Contract Terms Regulations state:

Written contracts
7. (1) A seller or supplier shall ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in plain, intelligible language.
(2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail but this rule shall not apply in proceedings brought under regulation 12.

Schedule 2 given an non-exhaustive list of unfair terms:

1. Terms which have the object or effect of:

(m) giving the seller or supplier the right to determine whether the goods or services supplied are in conformity with the contract, or giving him the exclusive right to interpret any term of the contract;

nPower do not define a "year" anywhere in their terms and conditions. But have decided that it means a tariff year (whatever one of those is).

nPower do not have any terms explaining how the "primary unit rate" is apportioned, but clearly have exclusive rights to how it is apportioned.

So in my opinion, it is in breach under Schedule 2(m).

Since the definitions of a year and apportionment is clearly under doubt, the definitions most favourable to us should prevail.

DirectDebacle

Fagun have a look at post #290 on this thread. New regs are now in force and are much stronger than the UTCCRs 1999. They are The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations, 2008. They came into force on May 26th. They are here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/uksi_20081277_en_2

npower definition of a 'tariff year' in a letter to me is this.

‘When we publish gas charges we state that 4,572 higher-priced ‘Primary Block’ kWH will be applied each year. The year quoted is a ‘tariff year’ that begins from the introduction of any changed charges. When npower change the way customers are charged a new “tariff year” commences from the date it changed.’

Takes a fair bit of imagination to construe that from the word 'year'

Note the words used in the last sentence of that definition. Refers to changed charges and not price increase. It would seem they are allowing themselves the opportunity to alter the 'sculpting' profile, which would be a change to the way customers are charged and thus start a new tariff year with a new sculpting profile. Theoretically they could do this daily, charging at 4572 per day, each day a new year. Be a bit pointless as probably only a gas fired power station would use that amount of high rates per day. Talk about having your cake and eating it.

I agree entirely with your view but if we take npower to court the burden of proof is on us to prove we were never informed of their policy and that their definition of a year is nonsensical. Should be a doddle but as the ad says 'every little helps'. If they have entrapped themselves with a bit of legal jargon then a bit more fuel to add the fire which I hope they incinerate themselves on.

Good luck with your quest I feel sure you are taking the right approach.