NPower gas 'sculpting'

fagun

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Fagun have a look at post #290 on this thread. New regs are now in force and are much stronger than the UTCCRs 1999. They are The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations, 2008. They came into force on May 26th. They are here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/uksi_20081277_en_2

I don't think the regulations can be applied retrospectively. Its their practices pre-2008 that I am complianing about.

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Note the words used in the last sentence of that definition. Refers to changed charges and not price increase. It would seem they are allowing themselves the opportunity to alter the 'sculpting' profile, which would be a change to the way customers are charged and thus start a new tariff year with a new sculpting profile. Theoretically they could do this daily, charging at 4572 per day, each day a new year. Be a bit pointless as probably only a gas fired power station would use that amount of high rates per day. Talk about having your cake and eating it.

Its their ability to have absolute discretion to calculate what is paid at what rate which makes the contract unfair (even if was clearly explained).

DirectDebacle wrote: »

I agree entirely with your view but if we take npower to court the burden of proof is on us to prove we were never informed of their policy and that their definition of a year is nonsensical. Should be a doddle but as the ad says 'every little helps'. If they have entrapped themselves with a bit of legal jargon then a bit more fuel to add the fire which I hope they incinerate themselves on.

I don't think the buden of proof is that high. print out the current terms and conditions, and ask them to show where they define "tariff year" and where they disclose that they use "sculpting". I have my bills - nothing their that explains their various changes in approach.

DirectDebacle wrote: »

Good luck with your quest I feel sure you are taking the right approach.

Thanks. I am only down £20 (I left early 2007) - but want them to admit they cheated me as a matter of principle.

RM5_2

Thanks DirectDebacle for bringing this scam to the attention of the Times, the articles were great to read, especially this was priceless:

c0113tt3 wrote: »

An npower spokesman said: “What we promise is that we won’t charge gas customers more than 4,572 units at the higher rate in a tariff year, which is not always the same as a calendar year. In our short tariff year of seven months from April to November 2007 we didn’t charge anyone more than 4,572 units at the higher price, but over a full 12 months, we did.

As an aside, sculpting was suspended from 1/5/2007 to 1/11/2007. I make this 6 months, but nPowers time warp makes anything possible.

However, make sure you do not build your case on them charging the full annual allowance in a short tariff year, because this is not what they did. I think this is only a distraction, and in court or towards ofgem, they will use the 12-6-12 reasoning again:
1/5/2006 - 1/5/2007: 1 year 4572 units --> OK
1/5/2007 - 1/11/2007: 1/2 year, 4572/2 units --> OK
1/11/2007 - 1/11/2008: 1 year, 4572 units --> OK

This is what you need to be well prepared for, and there are many refutations of this argument in this thread. Of course, any assessment of a seasonally adjusted pricing scheme needs to be made over an integer number of years, and once you do that, the evercharging is immediately apparent.
Also both sculpting changes clearly disadvantaged the customers, as in the period immediately following they would pay more than without the change and therefore nPower were required to notify according to

RM5 wrote: »

Standard Licence Condition 23.3b

which they didn't.

colonelhall

It's the 2 1/2 year argument that they used with me. Since I rejected this on the grounds already explained, they have declined to communicate with me. My last letter pointed out the flaw in their argument and requested a refund of the overcharge.
I still get the occasional letter from Energywatch stating that they are aware of the fact that I am getting no reply.

Simpy, I am not taking "no reply" as an answer!

DirectDebacle

RM5 of course you are correct. The minor point you mention,' As an aside, sculpting was suspended from 1/5/2007 to 1/11/2007. I make this 6 months, but nPowers time warp makes anything possible'

The 06/07 sculpt ended 31/03/07. April was charged at the 06/07 sculpt profile then May they altered the profile again. Being semantic I never agreed with the idea that sculpting was suspended, they continued to sculpt but at different rates until 1st November. That's where they get the seven months from. So for the year 1st April 07 to 31st March 08 there are three different sculpting profiles. April-May, May-November, November -???. I am not even sure now which sculpting year we are in. Did it start on 1st November which they said in a pamphlet or is it from Jan 4th when the prices increased.

Did you see the post from fiddling flower petals. It seems she is on a flat rate sculpt. She posted her bills and from Dec 07 - April 08 her high rates have been charged at the flat daily rate of 12.52. Very strange. No-one can understand it.

Back to your main points. You are absolutely right. If npower get a tariff year accepted then they will be ok. They may well use an example such as yours to show that it is not the cause of overcharging. I am hoping that a County Court will take a rather more simplistic and realistic point of view. Show them bills for a 12 month period and that the high rate units add up to more than 4572. If npower come out with this tariff year nonesense I am hoping a judge would be as incredulous as we are. I am also hoping the judge is an npower customer. A lot of 'hopes' in this post but there is no such thing as an open and shut case in our judicial system.

DirectDebacle

colonelhall wrote: »

Simpy, I am not taking "no reply" as an answer!

Send them a nice friendly summons colonel. They will have to reply to that.

Anne3333

Hmmm, very interesting that Fiddling Petal has a daily rate, whilst so many of us are being sculpted. As I mentioned before, do you think it possible that it is dependent on your yearly pattern of usage e.g. Perhaps if your summer usage is so low, that you may not use the full 4572 of higher rate units unless they used sculpting?

Cardew

Anne3333 wrote: »

Hmmm, very interesting that Fiddling Petal has a daily rate, whilst so many of us are being sculpted.

Just a thought.

Could Fiddling Petal be on a commercial(business) tariff, either intentionally or in error?

As I say, just a thought.

Anne3333

We need to try and see if there is some pattern here. I myself am a below average user in general and use very little gas in the summer months as even my cooker is electric. I can see that both between Oct 04 to Oct 05 AND Nov 2005 to Nov 2006, I did not use my full capacity of higher rate units due to my usage. Supposing they calculated that they were losing out on me because of my usage, then sculpting would ensure that I paid the full 4572 higher rate units each year. Anyone else with that kind of pattern?

DirectDebacle

Anne3333 wrote: »

Hmmm, very interesting that Fiddling Petal has a daily rate, whilst so many of us are being sculpted. As I mentioned before, do you think it possible that it is dependent on your yearly pattern of usage e.g. Perhaps if your summer usage is so low, that you may not use the full 4572 of higher rate units unless they used sculpting?

I really don't know and gave up long ago trying to work out npowers methodology/philosophy. Like trying to rationalise the irrational. I think Cardew may be onto something. This is what flower petal posted for her bill:


Bill period 17/12/07 - 7/4/08 (113 days)
First 1403 units @ 3.639
remaining unit @2.04

Her high rate units are much lower than mine, almost half. Lower rates almost the same. I have no idea what business rates are but I guess they would be cheaper than domestic tariff. Whatever she is on doesn't alter the fact we have been overcharged. Wish my high rate was the same as hers though.

Anne3333

Well we already know that pricing is dependent on where in the country you live. I have just been on to NPower site and checked out pricing for the same amount of kWh usage and there is a £38.79 difference depending on whether I live in Chester or London.