TV Licence article Discussion

Counterpoise

Have you noticed how digital radio always has a time lag of several seconds compared to analogue? (One of the reasons I'll never switch voluntarily to digital - not much point setting clocks by the Greenwich pips otherwise!)

Is this also true of digital TV compared with analogue TV? If so then surely if you only watch TV through a digibox then it's never live, there's always a delay therefore no TV licence needed.

(If someone can explain to me why on earth there's such a huge delay on digital radio, BTW, I might be able to work out for myself whether it must also be true of digital TV. A few milliseconds I could understand (processing time perhaps?), but several seconds seems incredible! Long gone sadly are the days of simultaneous Radio 3 and BBCTV broadcasts of concerts when the pictures you watched were synchronized with the sound coming through your hi-fi...)

Nilrem

Digital TV has a more noticable delay because, basically it takes time to encode it into the broadcast streams.

You also have the delays inherent with the various methods of delivery for it - for example satellite has a delay due to light speed lag (it takes longer to send the microwave signal from play out facility, to the ground station to the satellite than a few hundred miles max across country).

The same is true for how the STB decodes it, and for how analogue TV used to be transmitted, there were enough transmitters/relays in place that each delayed the signal slightly, that a transmission in one part of the country could be slightly later than in another - it's just a lot more obvious with digital due to the longer links (and additional coding/decoding stages).

The same is true for radio - even the best encoding gear requires some buffer to work with, and that's before it can start sending the signal out to be mixed into the broadcast mux, and before transmitters/relays add their own delays.

It used to be that if I had analogue TV on in one room, and cable TV on in another on the same channel, the analogue set would have the signal anything up to a couple of seconds in advance (almost like an echo).

As for it cancelling out the TVL, no such luck, as the law allows for things like transmission lag/the decoding of the signal.

Cornucopia

angoman wrote: »

last years licence was bought from a paypoint shop and was backdated by tvl when the licence was posted to me!!! also mentioned this on the recent phone call but the would not refund their last years mistake,its big brother at its worst run by ex nazi's

I've not done this myself, so I'm a little hazy on the detail. But it's about buying it from Paypoint, with cash, and it may involve having a different name on the licence.

Cornucopia

Nilrem wrote: »

As for it cancelling out the TVL, no such luck, as the law allows for things like transmission lag/the decoding of the signal.

In practice, TVL suggest a minimum of 2 hours delay - though they don't generally prosecute on the basis of physical evidence anyway.

In some cases (repeats and previews) the content will be available for download at the same time, and before the live transmission, but that still doesn't require a licence.

Avoriaz

Counterpoise wrote: »

..Long gone sadly are the days of simultaneous Radio 3 and BBCTV broadcasts of concerts when the pictures you watched were synchronized with the sound coming through your hi-fi...)

Is there a need for that anymore?

In those days gone by Radio 3 FM audio quality was usually better than BBC TV audio quality so many people watched the TV with the sound turned down and listened on FM radio via a hi fi. I did that myself many times.

That is no longer always true and the audio quality of BBC TV on most platforms is probably now better than FM and at least as good as DAB.

My opinion. Others may disagree as the subject of audio quality is a minefield full of varied opinions.

Counterpoise

Nilrem wrote: »

Digital TV has a more noticable delay because, basically it takes time to encode it into the broadcast streams.

You also have the delays inherent with the various methods of delivery for it - for example satellite has a delay due to light speed lag (it takes longer to send the microwave signal from play out facility, to the ground station to the satellite than a few hundred miles max across country).

The same is true for how the STB decodes it, and for how analogue TV used to be transmitted, there were enough transmitters/relays in place that each delayed the signal slightly, that a transmission in one part of the country could be slightly later than in another - it's just a lot more obvious with digital due to the longer links (and additional coding/decoding stages).

The same is true for radio - even the best encoding gear requires some buffer to work with, and that's before it can start sending the signal out to be mixed into the broadcast mux, and before transmitters/relays add their own delays.

It used to be that if I had analogue TV on in one room, and cable TV on in another on the same channel, the analogue set would have the signal anything up to a couple of seconds in advance (almost like an echo).

As for it cancelling out the TVL, no such luck, as the law allows for things like transmission lag/the decoding of the signal.

Thanks Nilrem. It still seems incredible to me that the delays are so long. Are you saying that digital terrestrial broadcasts are routinely passed via satellite? That still only adds 1/4 second or so (unless it's done several times with the same signal!). And you would have thought that whatever machine the outgoing signal is fed through at the broadcaster in order to digitize it would be a large, dedicated & powerful processor, so pretty fast... Or are the delays actually caused by the receiving equipment? That would perhaps make more sense. I must admit I haven't tried putting two digital radios or TVs next to each other to see if their output is synchronized when receiving the same signal! Even so, the amount of processing possible and/or physical distance coverable in what is often several seconds seems disproportionately large. (My mother-in-law has a digital radio, and more than once I've missed what an announcer said on my analogue radio and nipped through to where she was listening in the next room in plenty of time to hear the whole announcement again!)

Counterpoise

Avoriaz wrote: »

Is there a need for that anymore?

In those days gone by Radio 3 FM audio quality was usually better than BBC TV audio quality so many people watched the TV with the sound turned down and listened on FM radio via a hi fi. I did that myself many times.

That is no longer always true and the audio quality of BBC TV on most platforms is probably now better than FM and at least as good as DAB.

My opinion. Others may disagree as the subject of audio quality is a minefield full of varied opinions.

To be fair I haven't run cables from the audio output of my STB to my hi-fi - which would as you suggest probably solve the problem - for boring practical reasons of distance, wrong side of the room etc! So I'm stuck with my relatively lo-fi TV speakers - not ideal if I'm watching BBC4 or similar. It's noticeable however that concerts (e.g. Proms) are NEVER broadcast live on TV any more (except perhaps the Last Night? - cue synchronization experiments this Saturday!) - this seems to be partly so that (even on BBC4) they can broadcast them edited and/or late at night - but I suspect it's also to prevent people complaining about the lack of sync with FM!

Counterpoise

One more question (perhaps for Nilrem) - when I listen to analogue radio, what sort of processing / relaying delays am I experiencing do you reckon? As you say the lightspeed delays must be negligible. But are the clocks in my house still set inaccurately if I use Greenwich pips on analogue R4 to do so??

alanaplin

At home I only have a laptop and never watch anything broadcast live so I know I don't need a licence (and not had any problems with TV licencing). I spend weekends with a friend who does have a TV licence so I assume I'm ok watching their TV - is this still ok when they are not in the house? Am I ok for watching live TV on my laptop when they are also in their house or out of the house? Am I ok to watch live TV on my laptop in their garden?

HappyMJ

alanaplin wrote: »

At home I only have a laptop and never watch anything broadcast live so I know I don't need a licence (and not had any problems with TV licencing). I spend weekends with a friend who does have a TV licence so I assume I'm ok watching their TV - is this still ok when they are not in the house? Am I ok for watching live TV on my laptop when they are also in their house or out of the house? Am I ok to watch live TV on my laptop in their garden?

No you will need a licence to watch TV on your laptop wherever it is....but for confirmation you'll need to ask TV Licensing.

You can watch her TV at her house without a licence of your own.