RTS replacement issues

Scot_39

Its potentially very much  everything to do with it.

Those two cables and 2 contactors critical to what was needed from the replacement.

The OP has clearly made an effort to understand how the system worked before so their presence is an important integral part of that.

His old rts system had two rts contactors and 2 red inner grey outer meter tail cables from it.

Those could and based on typical ratings would suit hw [one 3kW = 13A of 25A] and nsh [3x3.4kW large = 42A of 80A] 

And those 2 old tails going straight as restricted tails to the relevant isolator in the comfort rated heating  cu would make perfect sense.

The bit about my boost being from the RTS - was because I was confused about how OP described his system in one post.

Phones4Chris

Scot_39 said:

Its potentially very much  everything to do with it.

No it does NOT. In one sense to doesn't matter if it's 13A, 20A, 40A, 60A or 100A (as long as it's big enough for the load) BUT to be technically pedantic the tails should be (at least) 16mm2 because it's a 60A Service Fuse protecting them. On a very short run, you can get away with 10mm2 for a 60A, or 16mm2 if it were an 80A or 100A Service fuse, otherwise they should be 25mm2.
IF they were seriously undersized then the new tails from the new meter should be terminated in either Henley blocks or an Isolator Switch or ELCB so that a local electrician could then replace the tails from there to the CUs with the correct size.
BUT the crux of the matter is that the Hot Water off-peak feed should be connected to the LLL (ALCS controlled) meter output. Nothing else is relevant here based on what the OP has complained about.

Scot_39

The old RTS - show the contactors and their status flags - together with labelling for 25A and 80A ratings.

The ratings were only included to inform folk of the two specific cables - I believe restricted meter to CU tails - I was referring to.

And tying them to devices - only to show that both were rated - from a RTS contactors perspecitvie - to drive a potential load mix.  To indicate its likely the 25A connection would be for restricted hot water - and the 80A as was - the NSH.

Not that there seemed any obvious markings on the tails before.

Only one of which we both agree appears to now be connected to port 5.

giant_among_ants

Firstly let me thank everyone for their interest and contributions so far.

Secondly I apologise for my lack of response but I was abroad on holiday, and since returning haven't been able to get back here as quickly as I'd have liked.

It looks like a lively debate has broken out in my absence and I will go through each post and provide as much extra information as I can.

giant_among_ants

Consumer units as requested. I wouldn't be confident enough to remove any covers at this point.


All the circuit breakers that I have.



24hr circuit which was metered by the old meter 1(standard rate). Still 24hr but is now metered according to the time of day.


From left to right. Storage heaters then bottom immersion heater (original installer had written top by mistake). Ignore third main switch for now. The first two main switches constituted the switched circuit(s) controlled by the RTS and were metered by meter 2(comfort rate). Currently only the first circuit(storage heaters) is being switched on/off overnight by the smart meter - the other (water heater) being 24hr live.



Ignore the first main switch here (see previous). The second main switch ran the 24hr heating circuit which was also metered by meter 2(comfort rate). Everything controlled by this main switch is still available 24hrs but now on time of use rates.
* living room fire socket is redundant.

giant_among_ants

Ildhund said:

giant_among_ants said:

Nothing was changed on the consumer units.

Meter engineers aren't supposed to touch anything beyond the meter, unless it's equipment needed to complete the installation like an external contactor for a switched circuit. You don't need that, because your five-port meter has a 100A contactor on board. Your engineer should have connected anything previously on a restricted circuit to the meter's fifth port, and everything else to the fourth. Your water tank's lower element wasn't apparently on a restricted (timed) circuit, so that's probably why it ended up on the constant circuit.

It sounds as if the water heating set-up can be sorted out by connecting the lower element to the same switched feed as the storage heaters, while the upper one stays on the constant circuit. That way, the meter will see to delivering power to the main element during offpeak hours, while the upper element is to be used only as an emergency daytime boost using the switch on the wall. This work can only be done by your own electrician; the supplier won't get involved in the property's internal wiring. Meter engineers aren't necessarily electricians, so many (most?) of them wouldn't be qualified to do the work anyway. No-one is at fault here as far as I can tell from what you've told us. 

Once you've got this fixed and SP have sorted out your tariff and their billing, you can start taking advantage of offpeak prices for everything during your 8½ offpeak hours. Be ready for an hour's shift in those when British Summertime ends on 26 October (so 23:00-07:30). 

I know that the conversation has moved on since you posted this Ildhund, but thanks for setting things out so clearly. 
As for the section in bold type, the lower tank element was very definitely on the restricted timed circuit.

giant_among_ants

QrizB said:

I've had E7 in the past. If yours was an E7 house to start with, there would normally be two immersion heaters in your tank, one (the main one) connected to the E7 cheap-rate consumer unit and one (the boost immersion) connected to the 24h supply.

It sounds as though you now have the correct E7 metering, but (because your house wasn't built for E7) the main immersion is on a permanently live circuit.

This isn't something that Scottish Power are going to fix, although you might get a small goodwill payment from them.

You will need to either move the heater circuit across to the E7 consumer unit (which is likely to involve an electrician) or, alternatively, fit a time switch to the water heater supply in your airing cupboard. Something like this (there are various options on the market) which is DIYable if you're competent aound electrics (it's a little bit more complicated than wiring a plug).

QrizB, I think it is both an E7 house and not an E7 house. The immersion heaters are as you describe, the boost control in the kitchen is even labelled E7 but SP have never used that term in any billing etc.
I think its reasonable to say that my system was based on E7 but had other additional benefits.
Unfortunately I don't have any bills that are old enough but I think that the tariff was called originally something like 'comfort plus'. I don't know exactly when, but SP changed the name to 'Standard' some years ago although, on the paper bills I do have, the meters are both designated as 'comfort plus control'.
Thanks for the time switch link. I know from previous research that a properly rated timer should be used so it will definitely be an electrician that does the work, not me.

giant_among_ants

Phones4Chris said:

@giant_among_ants I've ignored some of the previous remarks because I feel there has been a bit of confusion here as well as some side tracking not really relevant.
@doodling seems to have got this pretty much right BUT although you say nothing has changed at the CUs, we still need to see pictures of the CUs and which meter tails from the meter cabinet connect to where (ie any covers open so we can see the cct. breakers, trips etc.

Initial pics up now, not sure if I'll be able to get anything internal.


Sorry to disagree here, but the meter installer WAS at fault. 

Whist it was almost impossible to see all the original tails leaving the meter cabinet from the picture of before the Smart Meter installation, it did look as though there was 5, and this is confirmed by the picture post smart meter install.
The mistake that was made is that the tail for the Water Heater "off-peak consumer unit" has been connected into the Henley Block for the 24/7 supply when it should have been connected into a Henley Block on the ALCS off-peak supply (which hasn't been fitted). It should have been very obvious to the installer that this tail was the off-peak water heating
BUT as already said, need to the pictures of the CUs to be able to positively confirm.

As far as Tariffs go, the worst you should end up with is basic E7 at the sort of rates you quoted before 30p peak 14p off-peak but you might be able to "negotiate" maybe an 8 1/2hr off-peak tariff or whatever, maybe an E10 (off-peak times can be split) at different rates, it depends on what SP are prepared to offer and whether you accept the prices they propose. BUT SPs comment about rates being 24p standard and 22p Heating are clearly outrageous and will leave you considerably worse off.

So assuming the CUs are what are expected, the FIX here is for SP to send the (or another) installer back to fit a Henley Block on the ALCS (port 5) cable and move the Water Heater tail from the 24/7 Henley Block to the new Off-peak Henley Block. This is NOT a job for a local electrician, it's a supplier job! 

Thanks Phones4Chris, I think I can use much of this to construct a technical argument that the hot water could have been left on a timed supply and that it could be re-instated without difficulty if the will is there. 
My feeling is that SP knew exactly what they wanted to achieve and are unlikely to change their position but we shall see.

The new meter and the IHD are now showing rates of 21p peak and 0p off peak (standing charge has changed also) so I've asked SP for an updated bill.
They still insist that I'm on a standard tariff of 22p/24p but can't tell me how they are going to apply those rates. I suspect that off-peak usage will be billed at 22p and peak at 24p but it will be fun if their billing system uses the rates that the meter has been showing.

giant_among_ants

Ildhund said:

Thanks for the pictures - they're an enormous help.

Your close-up of the meter display screen shows (the little icons in the bottom right-hand corner) that both load control switches (ALCS LC1 and LC2) were closed at the time you took the photo. I hope that was before 08:30, i.e. during offpeak hours when the switched circuit connected to the fifth port (labelled LLL) should be live. You should note the precise time when 'LC1 LC2' changes to an open switch o´o - that tells you the delay built in to the meter affecting both the tariff switching times and the ALCS open/closed times. You should also check that TOU Rate 1 is for peak usage and TOU Rate 2 for offpeak. The easy way to check is to note both readings in the morning (after offpeak has ended) and again in the evening. Only one should have changed, and that is the peak register. It ought to be TOU Rate 1.

From your description of the consumer units, it sounds pretty straightforward to arrange for 'bottom water heater' to be connected to the same feed as 'storage heaters'. That is really all the timing you need; the meter will see to energizing the feed to the bottom element at the start of the offpeak period, and the thermostat should see to turning it off when the water's hot. Unless it's an enormous tank, it shouldn't take much more than three or four hours to heat up from cold. 

If you're keen to get to know more about your shiny new meter (identical to my own, just a couple of years younger), there's a detailed technical manual available here: Aclara SGM1400-B Series - UK Single Phase SMETS2 

I'm pretty sure everything is as it should be regarding meter performance Ildhund. There is a slight delay between the tariff changing and the restricted circuit being switched on, 2 or 3 mins maybe.

Yes, I discovered that manual and it has been very useful regarding explaining icons and operation of the meter.

Ildhund

giant_among_ants said:
There is a slight delay between the tariff changing and the restricted circuit being switched on, 2 or 3 mins maybe.

That doesn't sound right; if the meter is correctly configured, the tariff should change and the restricted circuit switch at precisely the same moment. Otherwise, there's a risk of your being billed at peak rate for the first few minutes of high load. The delay I mentioned applies equally to tariff change and load switching. How did you determine the times when the tariff changes?