RTS replacement issues

QrizB

"ComfortPlus Control" is explained (not especially well) on page 4 of this PDF:

https://web-content.scottishpower.co.uk/files/pdf/tariffs/2017/Supply_Area.pdf

Four supplies:

1. Control circuit for storge heating - LH section of your larger CU - timed (originally 0-14 hrs on a variable schedule based on weather forecasts)
2. Stored water heating circuit - centre section of your larger CU - timed (originally 4.5 hrs, 0400-0830)
3. Direct space & water heating circuit - RH section of your larger CU - 24hr
4. Everything else - your smaller CU  - 24hr

While there aren't any meter tails visible at your CUs, I have to agree with @Phones4Chris and others who have said the most likely cause is your smat meter installer connecting the tail that feeds item (2) above to the 24h feed from the smart meter, rather than to the timed one.

You should try again to get your supplier (SP?) back to rectify this mistake. That might take a complaint, and even a referral to the Ombudsman.

As a practial matter, though, you might want to switch it some other way in the meantime. Do you know when your E7 hours are and how they compare to your lifestyle? Are you awake late enough to switch the immersion heater on at the start of the period, or do you rise early enough to catch the end of it?

Edit to add screenshot, in case the PDF goes missing:

Northern_Wanderer

I understand that Home Energy Scotland are very keen to hear about issues like this affecting people who are worse off than they were before the RTS meter was removed. 

giant_among_ants

Ildhund said:

giant_among_ants said:
There is a slight delay between the tariff changing and the restricted circuit being switched on, 2 or 3 mins maybe.

That doesn't sound right; if the meter is correctly configured, the tariff should change and the restricted circuit switch at precisely the same moment. Otherwise, there's a risk of your being billed at peak rate for the first few minutes of high load. The delay I mentioned applies equally to tariff change and load switching. How did you determine the times when the tariff changes?

Waited up to midnight (off-peak start time). Tested for storage heater input at around 23:45 - there was none.
Cycled through the menus and noted when the tariff changed to off-peak (from memory it was pretty close to midnight).
Waited for the icons to show that the timed circuit was available ( actually heard it switch over) and then tested the storage heaters again in turn. This time there was input to all three (indicated on the IHD). 
I was actually making sure that the storage heater circuit was being switched on by the smart meter as one of the SP agents was adamant that this wasn't possible.
It's possible I've overstated the delay but I'm rarely up late enough to check it again soon.

giant_among_ants

Northern_Wanderer said:

I understand that Home Energy Scotland are very keen to hear about issues like this affecting people who are worse off than they were before the RTS meter was removed. 

Thanks Northern_Wanderer, I'll have a look and see if my situation might interest them.
As I said at the start I've seen plenty of press copy suggesting that former RTS customers shouldn't be disadvantaged by having a smart meter installed and I don't like to think that myself and others have been deliberately deceived.

giant_among_ants

Fascinating debate between Phones4Chris, Scot_39, Ildhund and molerat to which I won't spam the thread with individual replies but I will give some more information as requested.

The advice from the installer was that I would now have to use the 2hr boost control to heat the water tank as the bottom heater had been disabled. As he was saying this I could hear the bottom heater start to heat up so knew immediately that this was nonsense (I suspected it was now 24hr live, which it is). When I queried what he'd done he said that Scottish Power had decreed that there was to be 'no more off-peak water'. He'd been uncooperative from the start, refusing to discuss the installation before starting work.

There are definitely two tails coming from the bottom of the RH block, as suspected one is hidden by the tail coming from the top.

To my knowledge no work has been done in the meter cupboard since the original installation i.e. no wiring upgrades.

The two dark blocks are marked 240v, series 7; pretty sure they are the original ones.
I'm also sure the light coloured connector on the right is the old one but with the protruding part (marked Henley series 7) turned around.

giant_among_ants

QrizB said:

"ComfortPlus Control" is explained (not especially well) on page 4 of this PDF:

https://web-content.scottishpower.co.uk/files/pdf/tariffs/2017/Supply_Area.pdf

Four supplies:

1. Control circuit for storge heating - LH section of your larger CU - timed (originally 0-14 hrs on a variable schedule based on weather forecasts)
2. Stored water heating circuit - centre section of your larger CU - timed (originally 4.5 hrs, 0400-0830)
3. Direct space & water heating circuit - RH section of your larger CU - 24hr
4. Everything else - your smaller CU  - 24hr

While there aren't any meter tails visible at your CUs, I have to agree with @Phones4Chris and others who have said the most likely cause is your smat meter installer connecting the tail that feeds item (2) above to the 24h feed from the smart meter, rather than to the timed one.

You should try again to get your supplier (SP?) back to rectify this mistake. That might take a complaint, and even a referral to the Ombudsman.

As a practial matter, though, you might want to switch it some other way in the meantime. Do you know when your E7 hours are and how they compare to your lifestyle? Are you awake late enough to switch the immersion heater on at the start of the period, or do you rise early enough to catch the end of it?

Edit to add screenshot, in case the PDF goes missing:

Thanks for this QrizB.
None of the tariffs in the pdf exactly describe what I had but the one you've highlighted comes closest. I vaguely remember some talk of the energised hours being weather dependant but I don't think mine ever worked like that. Latterly both the storage heater and water tank circuits were definitely being switched on at the same time and both were energised continuously for 8.5 hrs.

Complaint has been made and deadlock letter received so the Ombudsman will be my next step.
Thanks again to everyone who has contributed. I don't pretend to understand all of it but you have given me the confidence to present the technical aspect of my complaint.

I am indeed back to using 1950s technology to get out of bed and switch the heater on in the morning to catch the last couple of hours or so, fine when it runs to 8:30 not so when the off-peak finishes an hour earlier.

Ildhund

giant_among_ants said:

It's possible I've overstated the delay but I'm rarely up late enough to check it again soon.

OK, thanks. I've just re-read what you wrote and see that the delay you're seeing probably works in your favour, and not as I warned about. Nevertheless, you should see a distinct delay between the nominal start time of the offpeak period and the actual switching times. Scottish Power's 'Economy 7' offering has usually given 8½ offpeak hours, from 23:00 to 07:30 GMT. It would be worth your while to nail down what the actual timings are - having cheaper electricity until sometime after 08:30 each morning could be valuable if that's what you find.   

WiserMiser

More reading...

https://www.changeworks.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Improving-Consumer-Outcomes-Fund-Report-April-2020.pdf

Northern_Wanderer

giant_among_ants said:

Northern_Wanderer said:

I understand that Home Energy Scotland are very keen to hear about issues like this affecting people who are worse off than they were before the RTS meter was removed. 

Thanks Northern_Wanderer, I'll have a look and see if my situation might interest them.
As I said at the start I've seen plenty of press copy suggesting that former RTS customers shouldn't be disadvantaged by having a smart meter installed and I don't like to think that myself and others have been deliberately deceived.

Energy Action Scotland could also be a potential route. Also, Citizens Advice do work on Social Policy issues like this so if advisers can open social policy cases for such matters and this can be looked at, although may take time.

JusthereforRTS

Hi I have been trying to find info on this as well and just joined this forum to respond to this thread. I have exact same issue that i previously had 24hour cheap rate for space panel heating, shower and boost. As well the RTS times provided a charge for storage heating and water in the day as well as overnight which kept my house warm and my water hot throughout the day. Now the cheap rate is solely over night for everything. I can also see on my storage heater that OVO set the wrong off-peak times on my 5 tailed meter, same as you an hour too late. My tariff was showing on my account as 23.30-7.30 but the meter was set to 00.30-8.30. This stayed the same when the clocks changed. Now I have switched to a different supplier the off peak times are correct. 
I have raised these issues with Ovo, Ofgem, Consumer Scotland, the Scottish Government energy efficiency line and the local heat trust. I took it to the energy ombudsman who acknowledged that I was worse off financially but that there was nothing they could do other than award me £200 for the terrible service from OVO. The fact that Ofgem's consultation on license conditions is just sitting there without a conclusion or even without publication of responses to the consultation suggests to me that they know customers will sometimes be worse off (especially in Scotland) but that they don't want to deter customers from getting a smart meter as if they don't they may have no heating at all. 
I understand that this is tricky for the regulator as the suppliers are paying for the meter replacements and they will want to recoup the cost. However, most customers won't understand any of this and will get a shock when their bills are higher. At the very least I would have thought there could be acknowledgement of the issue but I think they are just puttting their heads in the sand until everyone has switched and hoping it will go away. Its pretty poor. You would have thought at least the consumer organisations would make a fuss but they are just silent on it, and they do know. 
My local heat trust has tried valiantly to campaign on this but hit a brick wall constantly.
I'm all out of options myself, I've switched to a cheaper tariff which at least the smart meter allows me to do, so combined with that and with the fact I understand what has happened means I'll probably be OK. But my worry is about those who don't know any of this.