RTS replacement issues

Ildhund

Phones4Chris said:

The mistake that was made is that the tail for the Water Heater "off-peak consumer unit" has been connected into the Henley Block for the 24/7 supply when it should have been connected into a Henley Block on the ALCS off-peak supply (which hasn't been fitted). It should have been very obvious to the installer that this tail was the off-peak water heating

There are two live tails outgoing from the meter, labelled LL and LLL. LL is the fourth tail for the constant circuit, LLL the fifth for the switched circuit*. The cable labelled water heating from the RH Henley block is in fact the whole unrestricted feed, currently powering everything but the storage heaters. I can't see how the installer could have separated the feed to the bottom immersion heater element from the rest of the constant circuit without going outside the meter cupboard. He could perhaps just have terminated the switched circuit tail LLL in a new 3p Henley block, but this would have left the householder with no (storage) heating, which I suspect is a no-no for RTS replacement meter engineers. In any case, completing the job is the householder's responsibility, not the supplier's - says me.
  
I wonder what instructions the installer gave @giant_among_ants before departing.
  

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*  My OVO engineer labelled them LC and LS. I had to ask - so now I can't unknow what the labels mean.

Phones4Chris

Ildhund said:

Phones4Chris said:

The mistake that was made is that the tail for the Water Heater "off-peak consumer unit" has been connected into the Henley Block for the 24/7 supply when it should have been connected into a Henley Block on the ALCS off-peak supply (which hasn't been fitted). It should have been very obvious to the installer that this tail was the off-peak water heating

There are two live tails outgoing from the meter, labelled LL and LLL. LL is the fourth tail for the constant circuit, LLL the fifth for the switched circuit*. The cable labelled water heating from the RH Henley block is in fact the whole unrestricted feed, currently powering everything but the storage heaters. I can't see how the installer could have separated the feed to the bottom immersion heater element from the rest of the constant circuit without going outside the meter cupboard. He could perhaps just have terminated the switched circuit tail LLL in a new 3p Henley block, but this would have left the householder with no (storage) heating, which I suspect is a no-no for RTS replacement meter engineers. In any case, completing the job is the householder's responsibility, not the supplier's - says me.
  
I wonder what instructions the installer gave @giant_among_ants before departing.
  

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*  My OVO engineer labelled them LC and LS. I had to ask - so now I can't unknow what the labels mean.

If the LLL was connected to a Henley Block the Storage heater feed would still be connected to it, so to say he would have had no storage heating is completely wrong!!
There are TWO tails coming from the RH LL Henley block, not one, look at the picture again.
It is obvious that the Water Heater feed was a timed circuit and should therefore be connected to the LLL, NOT LL. (The other tail is the 24/7 feed for the other circuits).
ONLY IF there are other circuits on that Water heater feed that are required outside of off-peak times would the householder have to get an electrician to alter something in the CUs. My understanding from what @giant@giant_among_ants has said is, it's not the case but he'll have to confirm.
Edit: Oh and the reason for those added two Henley blocks in the first place was that the original tail for the 24/7 circuits was not long enough to go direct to the meter, and of course two N feeds were needed. (LH block).

QrizB

Phones4Chris said:

ONLY IF there are other circuits on that Water heater feed that are required outside of off-peak times would the householder have to get an electrician to alter something in the CUs. My understanding from what @giant@giant_among_ants has said is, it's not the case but he'll have to confirm.

And *that's* why I would appreciate a photo of the CUs.

OP has said they have two CUs They currently have three live tails (2x 24h, 1x timed). The detail of which tail goes where is important.

CU2 appears to contain both 24h and timed circuits:

CU1  one main switch, controls sockets, lights and cooker
CU2  three main switches. (A) controls storage heaters; (B) controls the bottom water heater; (C) controls the panels, convectors and top water heater (boost).

Exactly how the three sections of CU2 receive their power is key to this mystery.

Phones4Chris

QrizB said:

Phones4Chris said:

ONLY IF there are other circuits on that Water heater feed that are required outside of off-peak times would the householder have to get an electrician to alter something in the CUs. My understanding from what @giant@giant_among_ants has said is, it's not the case but he'll have to confirm.

And *that's* why I would appreciate a photo of the CUs.

OP has said they have two CUs They currently have three live tails (2x 24h, 1x timed). The detail of which tail goes where is important.

CU2 appears to contain both 24h and timed circuits:

CU1  one main switch, controls sockets, lights and cooker
CU2  three main switches. (A) controls storage heaters; (B) controls the bottom water heater; (C) controls the panels, convectors and top water heater (boost).

Exactly how the three sections of CU2 receive their power is key to this mystery.

Correct! Which is why I qualified my original comments "BUT as already said, need to the pictures of the CUs to be able to positively confirm."
From what the OP has said it would appear it should be 1 x 24/7 feed from the meter and 2x Off-peak feeds for the different sections of the CU(s).

Scot_39

If as was likely both the 25A and the 80A live from the RTS - driven by the comfort meter (top RHS) - was going to the restricted / heating CU - then I tend to agree that a new Henley is required and the port 5 feed split to supply it.

Not the exact model - but suspect wiring the same on this one.

https://youtu.be/bDfioJkTaoI?t=218

But I keep looking at the piccies - and sometimes convince myself their is 3 live tail connections from that new Henley - and then panic and think no - it's just the dirty white tape.  And that their are 6 tails going out on the old - including a 2nd neutral I dont have - but can see clearly in the new piccy.

I think the OP had 2 neutral and 4 live before

N - daymeter to CU

L - day CU (*)

N restricted and 24/7 comfort rate meter to CU

L1 - live - domestic heating label  (*)

L2 - restricted NSH ? 80A

L3 - restricted HW ? 25A (*)

It strikes me now L,L1 and L3 are now all on the Live Henley port 4 - L3 no longer restricted.  

Leaving OP at the mercy of his thermostat if leaves active - or paying day rate if uses water.

So L3 if existed needs a new Henley  block driven by port 5.  But going by OP's wording that is what he had.

But would be nice to see four ?? seperate input isolator switches in CUs - to make sure actually was 4 input and not output fuses / MCBs etc.

Or of the OP could tell us how main tails on the new Live Henley - as if only 2 outputs blows my theory completely.

But based on mine - if look at CU you wouldn't know what tails were driving which - unless you stripped it down - you'd have to take that on trust to some extent based on labeling and function.

But given the OPs reported problem - the L3 moving seems a logical conclusion.  But both those connections looked identical - so will need to check out they get the right one if others have lost wording etc.

Ildhund

Phones4Chris said:
There are TWO tails coming from the RH LL Henley block, not one, look at the picture again.

So sorry that these tired old eyes didn't spot the cable sneaking out of the bottom of that Henley block. That does indeed make a nonsense of what I wrote. 

Phones4Chris said:
Oh and the reason for those added two Henley blocks in the first place was that the original tail for the 24/7 circuits was not long enough to go direct to the meter, and of course two N feeds were needed. (LH block).

I rather thought the two blocks were just the existing ones repurposed, probably put there when all the cabling was renewed some time after the meters were installed in 1993. So, it might be possible to force the supplier to come back and correct their fault by parting the LLL tail to insert a new Henley block in the gap and transferring the water heating cable to the new block. There might still be some work needed in the CUs nevertheless.

Phones4Chris

@Ildhund well yes those two Henley blocks are repurposed BUT in view of @scot_39 's most recent remark "But I keep looking at the piccies - and sometimes convince myself their is 3 live tail connections from that new Henley - and then panic and think no - it's just the dirty white tape." 
Hmmm. I've looked yet again on a very zoomed in view and @QrizB I reckon that maybe we all need to go to specsavers!! I think maybe it isn't just the dirty white tape and there are indeed two tails coming out of the bottom of that RH Henley block which would make sense as - 

CU1  one main switch, controls sockets, lights and cooker
CU2  three main switches. (A) controls storage heaters; (B) controls the bottom water heater; (C) controls the panels, convectors and top water heater (boost).

Those CUs would require TWO 24/7 Live feeds, one for CU1 the other for CU2 (C) and TWO off-peak feeds CU2 (A) and CU2 (B). In a way the two 24/7 feed should have been obvious and a silly error to miss it BUT still NOT relevant to the fact that the Off-peak Water Heater should be connected to the LLL from the meter not LL in that RH Henley block.

@giant_amongst_ants can you please look closely at that RH Henley Block (move the water heater tail slightly if needed) and confirm that there are two tails coming out the bottom of it.

Can we also (just for our clarity) have pictures of the CUs (all open as I previously asked so we can see the Main Switches, breakers and etc.).

As I've understood it, the only issue you have complained about is the loss of Off-peak feed to the bottom water heater - CU2 (B) and this, as I've already said, is fixed by SP coming back and fitting a Henley Block to the Meter LLL (off-peak) output for the Storage Heater feed and moving the Water heater feed from the other existing Henley block to the new one.

Scot_39

When I look at that RH Henley - the new 24/7 live - when really zoom

If really zoom in You can see the looped over from top exit with label.

You can see the central tap from the rhs going straight down

And you can see a little bit of scuffed cable that to me is too wide and appears to be heading out of the meter cabinet more left to right - than the bottom central cable that looks to be slightly right to left - and the other starting to go is it behind - is that a tiny little bit of the centre cable appearing just as goes out of view ? or just a shadow / the "heating" tail from the top of the Henley..

I believe its also from the LHS of that piece of grey tail - to the RHS of the central point cable - too wide to be the same cable.

.

And at this zoom - you can see the tape ending  - so its not cream tape its scuffed grey tail.

So the OP has 4 CU isolators - he seems firm on that - and potentially as above 3 lives from meter port 4 and that Henley and only one restricted.

But I could just be going mad.

As my post above we need the OP to check.

"Or of the OP could tell us how main tails on the new Live Henley - as if only 2 outputs blows my theory completely."

So is it top and centre bottom - or top, left bottom and centre bottom - grey tails.

And on the old system - there no obvious termination point for what could have been 25A out and 80A out - but it was pretty crowded in the middle there.  And I may just have been reading too much into the ops reference to boost - as my RTS did the boost - and had two indendent outputs to do so.

molerat

I did wonder if that was 2 tails coming out of the bottom which if is the case then it is simply another Henley and connect the water heater to the LLL  / storage heaters which will be via a complaint to the supplier. So there should be 2 tails going to CU 1 and 4 to CU 2 which, depending on access / location, may or may not be visible.  The problem will of course be getting anyone at the supplier end to understand what is actually wrong.

Phones4Chris

Scot_39 said:

"Or of the OP could tell us how main tails on the new Live Henley - as if only 2 outputs blows my theory completely."

So is it top and centre bottom - or top, left bottom and centre bottom - grey tails.

And on the old system - there no obvious termination point for what could have been 25A out and 80A out - but it was pretty crowded in the middle there.  And I may just have been reading too much into the ops reference to boost - as my RTS did the boost - and had two indendent outputs to do so.

Instead of all this speculative "theory" and reference to 25A or 80A which has nothing to do with the key point, why don't we just wait for @giant_among_ants to come back and tell us.
Your query about whether it was two tails coming out of the bottom of that Henley block was the only thing of relevance!