RTS replacement issues

QrizB

giant_among_ants said:

All of the removed equipment was Scottish Power's property so my contention is that they should have, if technically possible, fitted replacement equipment that allowed the main hot water heater to be time controlled along with the storage heaters. Obviously they disagree and I am now in dispute with them.
Every other circuit is working as it used to and I am content with that. It is only the lack of a timer for the main water heater that I have taken issue with. 

I've had E7 in the past. If yours was an E7 house to start with, there would normally be two immersion heaters in your tank, one (the main one) connected to the E7 cheap-rate consumer unit and one (the boost immersion) connected to the 24h supply.

It sounds as though you now have the correct E7 metering, but (because your house wasn't built for E7) the main immersion is on a permanently live circuit.

This isn't something that Scottish Power are going to fix, although you might get a small goodwill payment from them.

You will need to either move the heater circuit across to the E7 consumer unit (which is likely to involve an electrician) or, alternatively, fit a time switch to the water heater supply in your airing cupboard. Something like this (there are various options on the market) which is DIYable if you're competent aound electrics (it's a little bit more complicated than wiring a plug).

giant_among_ants

Some photos that have been requested.



Old meters and RTS. The label bottom right reads 'domestic heating'.



New wiring. Labels from original installation. Left is 'water heater'. right is 'storage heaters'


complete new installation


New meter. 

giant_among_ants

Scot_39 said:

In theory there were meters capable of more complex tariff emulation...

Thanks Scot_39, loads of useful information for me.

You could at a push fit your own meter independent timer / contactor system (some have even automated theirs to match e.g agile cheap rate predictions for following day) - to get suitably timed NSH restricted feeds.  

But you would need to find a supplier willing to set port 5 live all day and more to the point give you a decent rate on it.  

So assuming they have wired that to port 4 - I suspect thats going to be it - and that could than be its at a premium day rate all day and night rate for 7 hours all night - in the case of say e7.

Assuming that port 5 is the one in front of the other four, then it has been assigned to the storage heaters as the timed circuit. 

giant_among_ants

doodling said:

Hi,

This feels like a simple thing to fix but, as always the devil is in the detail.  My understanding is that you originally had three separate feeds from your meters to your consumer unit(s):

1. Permanent live, from meter 1 feeding sockets, etc. at "normal rate".
2. Permanent live, from meter 2 feeding other heating and hot water (boost element).
3. Switched live, from meter 2 feeding NSH and hot water (bottom element).

Yes, exactly this.

I would have expected that you would have ended up with:

1. Permanent live feeding sockets, etc. other heating and hot water (boost element).
2. Switched live feeding NSH and hot water bottom element.

Yes, that's what I'd hoped for and expected after reading on here that it was possible and the apparent aims of Ofgem.

What you have actually ended up with is:

1. Permanent live feeding sockets, etc. other heating, hot water (boost element) and hot water (bottom element).
2. NSH only.

Again, exactly this.

I could understand the meter installer simply connecting original feed 1 to the permanent live, connecting original feed 3 to the switched live and joining feed 2 to either switched or permanent live (probably permanent live) - that would be the minimum work for them and only involve work on the meter tails.  Are you certain that that is not what has happened?

I can't state exactly what work has been done - only the effect of it and that is as you have described above.

In order to achieve what you say has happened then the meter installer would probably have needed to start fiddling around inside your consumer unit(s).  That feels unlikely - did they do this?

Not to my knowledge, unless he accessed them through the back of the meter cabinet. He did not re-enter my property until he had finished.

It would be necessary to see pictures of your consumer unit(s) (ideally before and after) to understand why this has happened.  Only once the "why" is understood it will be possible to determine whether what the installer did was reasonable and whether responsibility for the fix will lie with your supplier or yourself.

Nothing has been regarding the consumer units. There are two, configured as follows:

CU1  one main switch, controls sockets, lights and cooker
CU2  three main switches. (A) controls storage heaters; (B) controls the bottom water heater; (C) controls the panels, convectors and top water heater (boost).

Thanks very much doodling. I have posted photos of the old and new meter set-ups which will hopefully give you more insight. I certainly don't have the ability to tell what wiring changes have been made.

Phones4Chris

@giant_among_ants I've ignored some of the previous remarks because I feel there has been a bit of confusion here as well as some side tracking not really relevant.
@doodling seems to have got this pretty much right BUT although you say nothing has changed at the CUs, we still need to see pictures of the CUs and which meter tails from the meter cabinet connect to where (ie any covers open so we can see the cct. breakers, trips etc.

Ildhund said:

giant_among_ants said:

Nothing was changed on the consumer units.

Meter engineers aren't supposed to touch anything beyond the meter, unless it's equipment needed to complete the installation like an external contactor for a switched circuit. You don't need that, because your five-port meter has a 100A contactor on board. Your engineer should have connected anything previously on a restricted circuit to the meter's fifth port, and everything else to the fourth. Your water tank's lower element wasn't apparently on a restricted (timed) circuit, so that's probably why it ended up on the constant circuit.

It sounds as if the water heating set-up can be sorted out by connecting the lower element to the same switched feed as the storage heaters, while the upper one stays on the constant circuit. That way, the meter will see to delivering power to the main element during offpeak hours, while the upper element is to be used only as an emergency daytime boost using the switch on the wall. This work can only be done by your own electrician; the supplier won't get involved in the property's internal wiring. Meter engineers aren't necessarily electricians, so many (most?) of them wouldn't be qualified to do the work anyway. No-one is at fault here as far as I can tell from what you've told us. 

Once you've got this fixed and SP have sorted out your tariff and their billing, you can start taking advantage of offpeak prices for everything during your 8½ offpeak hours. Be ready for an hour's shift in those when British Summertime ends on 26 October (so 23:00-07:30). 

Sorry to disagree here, but the meter installer WAS at fault. 

Whist it was almost impossible to see all the original tails leaving the meter cabinet from the picture of before the Smart Meter installation, it did look as though there was 5, and this is confirmed by the picture post smart meter install.
The mistake that was made is that the tail for the Water Heater "off-peak consumer unit" has been connected into the Henley Block for the 24/7 supply when it should have been connected into a Henley Block on the ALCS off-peak supply (which hasn't been fitted). It should have been very obvious to the installer that this tail was the off-peak water heating
BUT as already said, need to the pictures of the CUs to be able to positively confirm.

As far as Tariffs go, the worst you should end up with is basic E7 at the sort of rates you quoted before 30p peak 14p off-peak but you might be able to "negotiate" maybe an 8 1/2hr off-peak tariff or whatever, maybe an E10 (off-peak times can be split) at different rates, it depends on what SP are prepared to offer and whether you accept the prices they propose. BUT SPs comment about rates being 24p standard and 22p Heating are clearly outrageous and will leave you considerably worse off.

So assuming the CUs are what are expected, the FIX here is for SP to send the (or another) installer back to fit a Henley Block on the ALCS (port 5) cable and move the Water Heater tail from the 24/7 Henley Block to the new Off-peak Henley Block. This is NOT a job for a local electrician, it's a supplier job! 

molerat

As above.  The water heater and storage heaters should both normally be connected to the off peak output, 3 brown Ls, but confirmation is needed to how both top and bottom immersion elements are connected at the consumer units and may need some alteration at your cost.

Phones4Chris

I added an edit to my previous post which was after @molerat posted which I hadn't seen then, and my edit he won't have seen, but as stated, if the CUs are as expected, it's simply a Supplier job.

QrizB

Phones4Chris said:

So assuming the CUs are what are expected, the FIX here is for SP to send the (or another) installer back to fit a Henley Block on the ALCS (port 5) cable and move the Water Heater tail from the 24/7 Henley Block to the new Off-peak Henley Block. This is NOT a job for a local electrician, it's a supplier job! 

We obviously have different expectations from the consumer units. Let's see them.

Ildhund

Thanks for the pictures - they're an enormous help.

Your close-up of the meter display screen shows (the little icons in the bottom right-hand corner) that both load control switches (ALCS LC1 and LC2) were closed at the time you took the photo. I hope that was before 08:30, i.e. during offpeak hours when the switched circuit connected to the fifth port (labelled LLL) should be live. You should note the precise time when 'LC1 LC2' changes to an open switch o´o - that tells you the delay built in to the meter affecting both the tariff switching times and the ALCS open/closed times. You should also check that TOU Rate 1 is for peak usage and TOU Rate 2 for offpeak. The easy way to check is to note both readings in the morning (after offpeak has ended) and again in the evening. Only one should have changed, and that is the peak register. It ought to be TOU Rate 1.

From your description of the consumer units, it sounds pretty straightforward to arrange for 'bottom water heater' to be connected to the same feed as 'storage heaters'. That is really all the timing you need; the meter will see to energizing the feed to the bottom element at the start of the offpeak period, and the thermostat should see to turning it off when the water's hot. Unless it's an enormous tank, it shouldn't take much more than three or four hours to heat up from cold. 

If you're keen to get to know more about your shiny new meter (identical to my own, just a couple of years younger), there's a detailed technical manual available here: Aclara SGM1400-B Series - UK Single Phase SMETS2 

Phones4Chris

QrizB said:

Phones4Chris said:

So assuming the CUs are what are expected, the FIX here is for SP to send the (or another) installer back to fit a Henley Block on the ALCS (port 5) cable and move the Water Heater tail from the 24/7 Henley Block to the new Off-peak Henley Block. This is NOT a job for a local electrician, it's a supplier job! 

We obviously have different expectations from the consumer units. Let's see them.

Not at all. Perhaps you missed these remarks from @giant_among_ants

Nothing has been regarding the consumer units. There are two, configured as follows: CU1 one main switch, controls sockets, lights and cooker CU2 three main switches. (A) controls storage heaters; (B) controls the bottom water heater; (C) controls the panels, convectors and top water heater (boost).

Also

New wiring. Labels from original installation. Left is 'water heater'. right is 'storage heaters'

It is quite obvious the mistake has been made by the installer, the off-peak water heater supply is labelled as stated by the OP who also said "To be clearer, I should really have asked what action I could suggest SP take in the meter cabinet in order to re-instate the timed switching of the hot water supply."

 @Ildhund As above.

 I'm sorry but there is no simpler way of putting this, both of you should not suggest that @giant_amongst_ants pays a local electrician to change his consumer units when it's a mistake of the off-peak feed being connected to the wrong meter output by the installer!

Phones4Chris said:

I added an edit to my previous post which was after @molerat posted which I hadn't seen then, and my edit he won't have seen, but as stated, if the CUs are as expected, it's simply a Supplier job.

As stated in my earlier post "BUT as already said, need to the pictures of the CUs to be able to positively confirm."