RTS replacement issues

giant_among_ants

Hi.

I have recently had my Radio Teleswitch and analogue meters replaced by a smets2 smart meter(Aclara SGM1416-B).

My set up was the Scottish Power comfort plus circuitry, as has been described in other threads.

In brief:

Meter 1. 24hr live circuit (at standard rate) for sockets, lights, cooker etc.

Meter 2. switched live circuits (at control rate) for night storage heaters and hot water cylinder; and 24hr live circuit (also at control rate) for all other heating – panels, convectors and hot water boost.

After the upgrade I now have only the NSHs on a switched circuit (via LCS) with the HWC on a 24hr live circuit (the boost function is still active).

I am disputing this new set up with SP on the grounds that I am in a worse position than previously, having lost the timed element of the hot water supply.

Having read many of the RTS specific threads on the forum I believe that SP should have been able to replace the RTS but leave my system with the same functionality as before.

I would very much appreciate it if any of the knowledgeable contributors on here could help with the following questions regarding my case which I hope will help with my complaint.

1. If I have misunderstood and SP have provided the best approximation to my original set up, then please let let me know and I will grudgingly accept that I will have to manually switch the HWC on and off or fit a timer somewhere in the supply.

2. If it was technically possible for the smart meter to control both restricted circuits, then how would that have been achieved?

3. Assuming it is possible for the smart meter to control the time of use for both the NSHs and HWC, what remedial work would need to be done now to achieve this?

Auxiliary question:

The smart meter shows that it is switching between an off peak rate of 14p/kwh (00:00 to 08:30) and a peak rate of 30p/kwh at all other times. I have queried this with SP and have been told that I should ignore this as I will be getting charged at the same dual rate as before – approximately 24p per standard unit and 22p per heating unit. As explained at the start this is not a time of use tariff but a dual tariff as I used to have two meters – for discrete circuits at different rates. Can a smart meter apply this type of split tariff or does it only operate on a time of use basis for the whole system?

Additional info:

The RTS actually contained two switches, presumably one for the NSHs and one for the HWC.

The smart meter has five terminals, each with a live or neutral cable connected to it.

There is plenty of space in the meter cabinet for additional equipment.

Ofgem/UK Government/UK Energy:

From reading statements, press releases etc. from these agencies I have been led to believe that it was intended that no customer should be disadvantaged by having a smart meter installed to replace their RTS. While it is clear to me that this was the spirit of the directions given to energy suppliers, I cannot now locate any direct quote that categorically states this. If anyone has a link to, or a copy of, such a statement, please post it in this thread.

Thank You.

Ildhund

giant_among_ants said:

1. If I have misunderstood and SP have provided the best approximation to my original set up, then please let let me know and I will grudgingly accept that I will have to manually switch the HWC on and off or fit a timer somewhere in the supply.

As always, the answer is 'it depends'. Many hot water tanks have two immersion heaters; the main one at the bottom on the switched circuit along with night storage heaters, the other nearer the top on a 24-hour circuit to provide a more expensive boost function. If yours only has one heating element, it will have to be on a 24-hour circuit to allow for emergency boosts. To take advantage of offpeak rates, there will have to be a timer to restrict normal operation to offpeak hours.

giant_among_ants said:

1.   

2. If it was technically possible for the smart meter to control both restricted circuits, then how would that have been achieved?

'Both circuits'? Are you referring to the feeds for water heating on the one hand and storage heaters on the other, then yes, this is a common arrangement. 

giant_among_ants said:

1.   

2.   

3. Assuming it is possible for the smart meter to control the time of use for both the NSHs and HWC, what remedial work would need to be done now to achieve this?

Probably not more than shifting some wires around in the consumer unit and perhaps upgrading a circuit breaker or two. Internal house wiring might get a bit more complicated if you need to install a timer for water heating. 

giant_among_ants said:

The smart meter shows that it is switching between an off peak rate of 14p/kwh (00:00 to 08:30) and a peak rate of 30p/kwh at all other times ... 
... I used to have two meters – for discrete circuits at different rates. Can a smart meter apply this type of split tariff or does it only operate on a time of use basis for the whole system?

Again, 'it depends'. Some suppliers are experimenting with installing 'twin-element' smart meters that are quite capable of behaving as if they were two separate meters. The experiments we've heard about have not been spectacularly successful.

If you showed us a clear close-up photo of your meter and another of the backboard or cabinet where it's mounted, we may have more concrete suggestions.
  

giant_among_ants said:

... I have been led to believe that it was intended that no customer should be disadvantaged by having a smart meter installed to replace their RTS. While it is clear to me that this was the spirit of the directions given to energy suppliers, I cannot now locate any direct quote that categorically states this. If anyone has a link to, or a copy of, such a statement, please post it in this thread.

Yes, I think you're right that this hasn't made the leap from a suggestion to a formal instruction. Ofgem haven't yet published their conclusions from their consultation on changes to the Standard Licence Conditions, but the minister responsible made reference to it in her response to a parliamentary question recently. I suppose it comes down to what is meant by 'no worse off'. 

Rodders53

Probably people will need pictures of before and after meter changes, plus the Consumer Unit(s) with circuits labelling clearly shown (again before/after if any were moved between units).

In particular the HW immersion elements (lower should be cheap night rate, upper on day when boosted).  I'd expect separate fuse / mcb /rcbo for each HW element from the original install.

NB RTS was, effectively, a time of use tariff...  with switching of the heating load(s) by that radio signal.  (In theory / original design for domestic use the timing of switching on/off was dependent on the weather forecast to push more heat into the storage systems when cold was expected vs less when it was to be warmer the next day.  How well that worked is another matter.).

QrizB

I think that there's no real prospect of you going back to having a 24h ""off-peak" supply for heating.

Your supplier has installed a smart meter with 24h and ALCS-switched off-peak outputs. Everything electrical that happens after the smart meter is the responsibility of the home owner (ie. you, or your landlord of you rent).

It should be a relatively easy job for an electrician to reconfigure your consumer units to put your"boost" immersion heater on the 24h supply you've got, and to similarly move any other heating circuits that you want active outside your E7 hours. (If your consumer units are ancient or full, it might require a replacement.) But you'll be paying the relevant tariff on these circuits; cheap rate during E7 hours, peak rate at other times.

giant_among_ants

Thanks very much for the replies so far, I'll respond to each in turn. Apologies in advance if the formatting isn't particularly slick.

giant_among_ants

giant_among_ants said:

1. If I have misunderstood and SP have provided the best approximation to my original set up, then please let let me know and I will grudgingly accept that I will have to manually switch the HWC on and off or fit a timer somewhere in the supply.

As always, the answer is 'it depends'. Many hot water tanks have two immersion heaters; the main one at the bottom on the switched circuit along with night storage heaters, the other nearer the top on a 24-hour circuit to provide a more expensive boost function. If yours only has one heating element, it will have to be on a 24-hour circuit to allow for emergency boosts. To take advantage of offpeak rates, there will have to be a timer to restrict normal operation to offpeak hours.

My water tank has two immersion heaters, exactly as you describe except that the boost function was charged at the same discounted rate as the switched circuit. The bottom heater is now on a 24-hour circuit and it is the removal of the time control that I have complained about.

giant_among_ants said:

1.   

2. If it was technically possible for the smart meter to control both restricted circuits, then how would that have been achieved?

'Both circuits'? Are you referring to the feeds for water heating on the one hand and storage heaters on the other, then yes, this is a common arrangement. 

Yes, exactly this. I would like to be able to prepare a strong rebuttal should SP try to say that it wasn't technically possible for one smart meter to switch two restricted circuits.

 

giant_among_ants said:

1.   

2.   

3. Assuming it is possible for the smart meter to control the time of use for both the NSHs and HWC, what remedial work would need to be done now to achieve this?

Probably not more than shifting some wires around in the consumer unit and perhaps upgrading a circuit breaker or two. Internal house wiring might get a bit more complicated if you need to install a timer for water heating. 

To be clearer, I should really have asked what action I could suggest SP take in the meter cabinet in order to       re-instate the timed switching of the hot water supply. There is a switched, hard-wired socket in the tank cupboard so it should be straightforward for an electrician to fit an appropriate timer between it and the heating element.

giant_among_ants said:

The smart meter shows that it is switching between an off peak rate of 14p/kwh (00:00 to 08:30) and a peak rate of 30p/kwh at all other times ... 
... I used to have two meters – for discrete circuits at different rates. Can a smart meter apply this type of split tariff or does it only operate on a time of use basis for the whole system?

Again, 'it depends'. Some suppliers are experimenting with installing 'twin-element' smart meters that are quite capable of behaving as if they were two separate meters. The experiments we've heard about have not been spectacularly successful.

If you showed us a clear close-up photo of your meter and another of the backboard or cabinet where it's mounted, we may have more concrete suggestions.

Interesting, I don't think that I have an experimental smart meter but you never know! I am 99% sure that I will eventually be charged at the peak/off-peak rates and not the old tariff as SP insist, but if I take SP to task over this then I want to be on solid ground.

I will hopefully get some photos posted tomorrow.

giant_among_ants said:

... I have been led to believe that it was intended that no customer should be disadvantaged by having a smart meter installed to replace their RTS. While it is clear to me that this was the spirit of the directions given to energy suppliers, I cannot now locate any direct quote that categorically states this. If anyone has a link to, or a copy of, such a statement, please post it in this thread.

Yes, I think you're right that this hasn't made the leap from a suggestion to a formal instruction. Ofgem haven't yet published their conclusions from their consultation on changes to the Standard Licence Conditions, but the minister responsible made reference to it in her response to a parliamentary question recently. I suppose it comes down to what is meant by 'no worse off'. 

I am sure that read press articles which contained direct quotes from either an Ofgem spokesperson or the minister above which informed my view. They may have been misquotes and thus removed but if not I may be able to find them again. 

Thanks again Ildhund.

giant_among_ants

Rodders53 said:

Probably people will need pictures of before and after meter changes, plus the Consumer Unit(s) with circuits labelling clearly shown (again before/after if any were moved between units).

In particular the HW immersion elements (lower should be cheap night rate, upper on day when boosted).  I'd expect separate fuse / mcb /rcbo for each HW element from the original install.

NB RTS was, effectively, a time of use tariff...  with switching of the heating load(s) by that radio signal.  (In theory / original design for domestic use the timing of switching on/off was dependent on the weather forecast to push more heat into the storage systems when cold was expected vs less when it was to be warmer the next day.  How well that worked is another matter.).

Thanks for the reply Rodders53.
I have taken before and after photos of the meters which I will try to post tomorrow. Nothing was changed on the consumer units.
As I've written previously, the lower and upper immersion elements were both on the cheaper rate. They each have their own circuit breakers on the consumer unit.
I have lived in this property since it was built and was only given vague information by the developer about how the RTS functioned and how the electricity was metered. Over the years I've gradually worked out which circuits were connected to which meter and whether they were switched or permanently on. It could perhaps be described as an Ecomomy 7 hybrid with both meters active 24hrs and the RTS governing when the storage heater and lower immersion heater circuits were available. For years I thought that it may have been installed incorrectly but since the RTS switch-off became news I've learned that this arrangement was quite common in Scotland.

Scot_39

In theory there were meters capable of more complex tariff emulation.  There were 7 port meters in the past claiming to do some - the liberty 114 smets1 was 7 port and 116 smets2 replacement was iirc upto 7 port.

But you would need not just the ports but at least a twin element meter to do something like comfort.  To measure different feeds independently - to allow them to be charged at different rates.  

Most single phase meters only have 1 measurement / "1 element" - they cannot distinguish between use - its why modern E7 ALCS has to apply peak and off peak rates to all the use in the home unlike old twin meter systems.

Your SGM1416 - has that single element problem - it cannot measure - so cannot charge - comfort rate for energy on port 5 at the same time as a different day rate for energy on the port 4 for lighting etc. 

And take the twin element thread we have here - by user PZ19 - and his EDF issues - the Aclara SGM-1422b - only has 2 outputs - no external 2A drive output for any auxiliary contactor  (and even then doubt as to whether a supplier could and would set the two differently - one 24/7 one restricted).

You could at a push fit your own meter independent timer / contactor system (some have even automated theirs to match e.g agile cheap rate predictions for following day) - to get suitably timed NSH restricted feeds.  

But you would need to find a supplier willing to set port 5 live all day and more to the point give you a decent rate on it.  

So assuming they have wired that to port 4 - I suspect thats going to be it - and that could than be its at a premium day rate all day and night rate for 7 hours all night - in the case of say e7.

I was offered SR or E10 / 2 output - to replace my three rate / three output RTS - at the time Ofgem allowed either - as long as heating and HW had power - in case of SR - Ofgem even backed suppliers not sorting out timers - an owners expense if chose SR.

I hope the protections are better now - but I suspect they dont enforce an exact match - even if their is wording to that effect as guidance.

As some have reportedly moved from THTC to E10 (similar but not seasonally dynamic upto exact same winter cap) , from legacy to E7 (Rosie lost 5+ 2hr afternoon to E7 - fought for E10 - and lost it - so has switched away from EDF after months of fighting it) etc.

But the key thing here is you also need suppliers to want to offer tariffs.  Or Ofgem to insist they do so.

During the challenger era - at one stage - small startups didnt iirc have to offer anything other than single rate - not even e7.

Many have not focused on conventional electric heating for a long time.

The fact Octopus launched Snug was a welcome sign that maybe 3m soon to be former RTS and modern metered e7 users were suddenly getting some well needed attention,

And many suppliers will be looking at the implications of MHHS upstream payments to grid / generators - and will therefore be looking at what that means downstream - for the tariffs and billing options they offer us as users.

doodling

Hi,

This feels like a simple thing to fix but, as always the devil is in the detail.  My understanding is that you originally had three separate feeds from your meters to your consumer unit(s):

1. Permanent live, from meter 1 feeding sockets, etc. at "normal rate".
2. Permanent live, from meter 2 feeding other heating and hot water (boost element).
3. Switched live, from meter 2 feeding NSH and hot water (bottom element).

I would have expected that you would have ended up with:

1. Permanent live feeding sockets, etc. other heating and hot water (boost element).
2. Switched live feeding NSH and hot water bottom element.

What you have actually ended up with is:

1. Permanent live feeding sockets, etc. other heating, hot water (boost element) and hot water (bottom element).
2. NSH only.

I could understand the meter installer simply connecting original feed 1 to the permanent live, connecting original feed 3 to the switched live and joining feed 2 to either switched or permanent live (probably permanent live) - that would be the minimum work for them and only involve work on the meter tails.  Are you certain that that is not what has happened?

In order to achieve what you say has happened then the meter installer would probably have needed to start fiddling around inside your consumer unit(s).  That feels unlikely - did they do this?

It would be necessary to see pictures of your consumer unit(s) (ideally before and after) to understand why this has happened.  Only once the "why" is understood it will be possible to determine whether what the installer did was reasonable and whether responsibility for the fix will lie with your supplier or yourself.

Ildhund

giant_among_ants said:

Nothing was changed on the consumer units.

Meter engineers aren't supposed to touch anything beyond the meter, unless it's equipment needed to complete the installation like an external contactor for a switched circuit. You don't need that, because your five-port meter has a 100A contactor on board. Your engineer should have connected anything previously on a restricted circuit to the meter's fifth port, and everything else to the fourth. Your water tank's lower element wasn't apparently on a restricted (timed) circuit, so that's probably why it ended up on the constant circuit.

It sounds as if the water heating set-up can be sorted out by connecting the lower element to the same switched feed as the storage heaters, while the upper one stays on the constant circuit. That way, the meter will see to delivering power to the main element during offpeak hours, while the upper element is to be used only as an emergency daytime boost using the switch on the wall. This work can only be done by your own electrician; the supplier won't get involved in the property's internal wiring. Meter engineers aren't necessarily electricians, so many (most?) of them wouldn't be qualified to do the work anyway. No-one is at fault here as far as I can tell from what you've told us. 

Once you've got this fixed and SP have sorted out your tariff and their billing, you can start taking advantage of offpeak prices for everything during your 8½ offpeak hours. Be ready for an hour's shift in those when British Summertime ends on 26 October (so 23:00-07:30). 

giant_among_ants

 

QrizB said:

I think that there's no real prospect of you going back to having a 24h ""off-peak" supply for heating.

Your supplier has installed a smart meter with 24h and ALCS-switched off-peak outputs. Everything electrical that happens after the smart meter is the responsibility of the home owner (ie. you, or your landlord of you rent).

It should be a relatively easy job for an electrician to reconfigure your consumer units to put your"boost" immersion heater on the 24h supply you've got, and to similarly move any other heating circuits that you want active outside your E7 hours. (If your consumer units are ancient or full, it might require a replacement.) But you'll be paying the relevant tariff on these circuits; cheap rate during E7 hours, peak rate at other times.

Thanks QrizB.
I wouldn't expect any 24hr heating circuits to be supplied at a discount as they were previously. That's one thing I was sure would happen when moving to a smart meter and I have no issue with it.

All of the removed equipment was Scottish Power's property so my contention is that they should have, if technically possible, fitted replacement equipment that allowed the main hot water heater to be time controlled along with the storage heaters. Obviously they disagree and I am now in dispute with them.

Every other circuit is working as it used to and I am content with that. It is only the lack of a timer for the main water heater that I have taken issue with.