How to help someone sort finances in the event of death

B0bbyEwing

I'm going on hol soon & will be flying. It made me think I should probably get something in place should that big bird fall out of the sky.

I also help manage various family members finances on their request which I guess can complicate matters.

So I'm currently putting things together in a spreadsheet for a trusted family member (trusted is wrong word, they're all trusted, but probably most competent would be a better phrasing), what's what & what to do if anything was to happen.

Am also going to create a Bitwarden account with necessary passwords. I know this could cause a hold up in advice but just trust me that this person is trusted & let's go on from there.

Obviously I'll want 2FA on email accounts & anything else that has it. The problem / my concern is that they could have all the information but then need to access authenticator apps / emails / mobile phones.

I'm sorting the finances but I don't want to hand over access to absolutely everything, even if I wouldn't be here any more.

I'm sure some of you will have already sorted something to be in place so looking for advice so they don't run in to a brick wall.


EDIT to question - 

Just had a thought. If I die then the life insurance should pay out & this is enough for my wife to pay off the mortgage and vice versa.

What happens in the event we both die at the same time?

I don't imagine the bank says - ahh that's a bit unfortunate for you, let's forget about it but I imagine most people wouldn't have savings to cover their mortgage? Would it be to the family left behind to find anything like life insurance/death policy & use that to pay the mortgage?

Basically asking whether I should be including the life insurance policy info with this or not.

Keep_pedalling

Let’s start with the basics. Do you both have wills in place? Do you both have financial LPAs in place? If the answer to either is no, then that is your starting point. Your will will appoint executors who can act for your estate on your death, and will deal with the issue of the possibility of you dying at the same time. 

Death is not the only thing that you need to consider, you nay Ned someone to deal with your financial affairs should you ever lose mental capacity though illness or accident which is where the LPA comes in.

Vitor

That's a lot to unpack and there are some notable omissions such as do you and your wife have wills which name each other as executors? If not, getting wills drawn up, including naming "backup" executor(s) to cover the eventuality of both spouses dying simultaneously would be a priority.

Regarding life assurance, assuming the policy provisions are met, policies would pay out to respective estates in the event of both spouses dying simultaneously. That's when the backup executor(s) would step in and manage the estate, making the claims on production of death certificates and probate confirmation.

On your point about "helping" manage family members’ finances: are you offering informal advice, or actively executing transactions on their behalf? If it’s the latter, and there’s no registered Power of Attorney (PoA) in place and activated, that’s a legal grey area. Indeed you'd likely be crossing into unlawful territory if you passed on PINs, login details, or 2FA codes to a third party even if you judge them as 'competent'.

sausage_time

You may want to read this for some ideas of gaps to think about and cover:

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/family/what-to-do-when-someone-dies/

Google lets you pass on your account to specific people when you become inactive:

https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/3036546?hl=en

Undervalued

B0bbyEwing said:

I'm going on hol soon & will be flying. It made me think I should probably get something in place should that big bird fall out of the sky.

I also help manage various family members finances on their request which I guess can complicate matters.

So I'm currently putting things together in a spreadsheet for a trusted family member (trusted is wrong word, they're all trusted, but probably most competent would be a better phrasing), what's what & what to do if anything was to happen.

Am also going to create a Bitwarden account with necessary passwords. I know this could cause a hold up in advice but just trust me that this person is trusted & let's go on from there.

Obviously I'll want 2FA on email accounts & anything else that has it. The problem / my concern is that they could have all the information but then need to access authenticator apps / emails / mobile phones.

I'm sorting the finances but I don't want to hand over access to absolutely everything, even if I wouldn't be here any more.

I'm sure some of you will have already sorted something to be in place so looking for advice so they don't run in to a brick wall.


EDIT to question - 

Just had a thought. If I die then the life insurance should pay out & this is enough for my wife to pay off the mortgage and vice versa.

What happens in the event we both die at the same time?

I don't imagine the bank says - ahh that's a bit unfortunate for you, let's forget about it but I imagine most people wouldn't have savings to cover their mortgage? Would it be to the family left behind to find anything like life insurance/death policy & use that to pay the mortgage?

Basically asking whether I should be including the life insurance policy info with this or not.

Given that air travel on a recognised airline is statistically the safest form of transport there is, you are at more risk popping out to the local shop!

However having a sensible and proportionate plan is a commendable aim.

Just to answer the paragraph I have highlighted, most solicitors when drafting wills etc suggest using a clause that any beneficiary must survive you by at least one month in order to inherit. You have to draw a line somewhere but this generally saves long and expensive medical and legal arguments about who died first if you are both involved in the same accident.

Keep_pedalling

Undervalued said:

B0bbyEwing said:

I'm going on hol soon & will be flying. It made me think I should probably get something in place should that big bird fall out of the sky.

I also help manage various family members finances on their request which I guess can complicate matters.

So I'm currently putting things together in a spreadsheet for a trusted family member (trusted is wrong word, they're all trusted, but probably most competent would be a better phrasing), what's what & what to do if anything was to happen.

Am also going to create a Bitwarden account with necessary passwords. I know this could cause a hold up in advice but just trust me that this person is trusted & let's go on from there.

Obviously I'll want 2FA on email accounts & anything else that has it. The problem / my concern is that they could have all the information but then need to access authenticator apps / emails / mobile phones.

I'm sorting the finances but I don't want to hand over access to absolutely everything, even if I wouldn't be here any more.

I'm sure some of you will have already sorted something to be in place so looking for advice so they don't run in to a brick wall.


EDIT to question - 

Just had a thought. If I die then the life insurance should pay out & this is enough for my wife to pay off the mortgage and vice versa.

What happens in the event we both die at the same time?

I don't imagine the bank says - ahh that's a bit unfortunate for you, let's forget about it but I imagine most people wouldn't have savings to cover their mortgage? Would it be to the family left behind to find anything like life insurance/death policy & use that to pay the mortgage?

Basically asking whether I should be including the life insurance policy info with this or not.

Given that air travel on a recognised airline is statistically the safest form of transport there is, you are at more risk popping out to the local shop!

However having a sensible and proportionate plan is a commendable aim.

Just to answer the paragraph I have highlighted, most solicitors when drafting wills etc suggest using a clause that any beneficiary must survive you by at least one month in order to inherit. You have to draw a line somewhere but this generally saves long and expensive medical and legal arguments about who died first if you are both involved in the same accident.

It is not so common to have such a clause these days as it can actually cause an unnessesary IHT liability for married couples where one of them has significantly more wealth than the other because of the loss of spousal exemption and transferable NRB. For example Fred has £700k in assets and Freda his wife has £300k. He dies on Monday, she dies on Tuesday. If his will has a survivorship clause which passes his estate (including the home) to his children then the estate will only have £500k in exemptions so IHT will be payable to the tune of £80k. 

Without a survivorship clause his estate passes to her IHT free and her estate has exemptions of £1M so no IHT payable. 

Where a couple die together and the sequence of deaths cannot be determined then it is deemed that the oldest died first so there should be no expensive legal hoops to jump through. 

SurferDan

Shouldn't this be in the "Death, Funerals and Probate" section of the "Life & Family" sub forum?

B0bbyEwing

SurferDan said:

Shouldn't this be in the "Death, Funerals and Probate" section of the "Life & Family" sub forum?

I was coming from the accessing Bitwarden viewpoint (and coming up against authenticator app issues..... Potentially, even with correct details).


Thats my primary even though I knew the thread would go down the road of wills & such. 

On the topic of which, no, no will in place & no time to sort one between now and then either. 

Also I know that flying will be statistically the safer way of travelling however if something goes wrong flying then what do statistics say about survival rates then? 

I've been in 3 car bumps & 1 bicycle-car collision & survived all of them.

Not sure how many times I'd survive falling out of the sky though if it was to happen. 

Vitor

There is now a tech aspect to estate planning, eg my executor can invoke a access request to password vault which automatically grants after 7 days 

B0bbyEwing

Vitor said:

That's a lot to unpack and there are some notable omissions such as do you and your wife have wills which name each other as executors? If not, getting wills drawn up, including naming "backup" executor(s) to cover the eventuality of both spouses dying simultaneously would be a priority.

Regarding life assurance, assuming the policy provisions are met, policies would pay out to respective estates in the event of both spouses dying simultaneously. That's when the backup executor(s) would step in and manage the estate, making the claims on production of death certificates and probate confirmation.

On your point about "helping" manage family members’ finances: are you offering informal advice, or actively executing transactions on their behalf? If it’s the latter, and there’s no registered Power of Attorney (PoA) in place and activated, that’s a legal grey area. Indeed you'd likely be crossing into unlawful territory if you passed on PINs, login details, or 2FA codes to a third party even if you judge them as 'competent'.

Forgot to get round to answering that.

I execute transactions. 

Well aware it is a 'grey area' or even a black & white area & shouldn't be doing area but there's a lot of things you shouldn't do in this world & they get done anyway. Nobody is winding up dead from this so no harm done.

All on their request too I should add. I know this doesn't make it any more right but I'm just saying what it is.

All by their own admission they would just leave all their money in a current account & be done with because "it's just easier". I know the masses here would start talking about teaching them X Y & Z but they're just not going to do it (their words), they "don't have time for that" and it's "too much faff". 

They know I don't mind, I actually enjoy helping, so I do it.

It'll go something like - I see a new savings account paying 5%, I know they have one at 2%. I say this one is paying more, do you want to switch over. They say yes so I do the switch, shut the old account down etc. I cycle money through accounts to hit criteria (e.g. a bank needs £2k per month to meet a target). 

All that kind of stuff - and so I have all their login details. 

I keep a running spreadsheet should they ever question anything but they never do because they trust me & I enjoy helping their money work better for them because I know they wouldn't bother otherwise. 

Fully aware some would say well let them not bother then but everyone does their own thing & my thing is helping the family where I can & like I said, nobody is ending up dead in the process. 

Rich1976

I think that all the help your family members are helped with would obviously stop in the event of your death. As in the eyes of banks, financial institutions etc they shouldn’t be providing their log in details to someone else no matter how trusted they are. 

If you were their power of attorney that would be different but not the way you do it. So really they would be on their own.