Unusual Probate Scenario & Estate Advice

RAS

One very basic fact of which you need to be aware is that banks will pay funeral costs directly from bank accounts without probate. These have priority under normal dealings. The bill needs to be sent directly by the funeral director. It must happen thousands of times each year.

If you can speak to the bereavement departments at each of his banks, you may find that they can provide you with information about what they'd require from France to settle those bills? And perhaps decided whether his current burial place becomes his permanent one, providing you can buy the burial plot etc?

silvercar

I’d have a look at reviews online for this Folkestone hotel, it could turn out to be an old people’s home in all but name. Presumably, registering as a hotel evades meeting home care legislation etc

a call to the hotel may lead to more information and they may be the easiest people to let slip useful information.

i wouldn’t do any more than that at this stage. If uncle died without a will, your father is in line to inherit not you.

gwynlas

It might be that your uncle based himself in Folkestone in order to make frequent return trips to France living in an hotel for convenience.

If you ave his bank details there might be a travel insurance element involved or given his frequent visits evidence of purchase of an annual policy which would cover death.

If there is no evidence of a will that sets out wishes for internment I would simply arrange cremation in France and recover his cremains should you wish.

You really need to know if your own fathers circumstances as if your uncle was intestate he would take precedence over you in distribution of the estate

DE_612183

rjsdavis said:

DE_612183 said:

question - how old is your Father?

how distinctive is his name?

you could try 192.com

also if you know a previous place of work that might lead you to a pension provider etc.

would you have somewhere his NI number?

There are Relative Finders who change about £500 - not sure if that constitutes burning through cash, as I appreciate your circumstances have to be taken into account as well.....

Thank you for your further reply. 

Father is now 81 (b. 1944)
Not particularly distinctive name, and I have tried 192.com on a number of occasions. No results. 

I used to have a reasonable idea of where he lived, as for a little while he lived in his mother's old house before it was sold, and then remained in the same area. I've seen him in the city several times over the years, and the last time I saw him was pre-Covid in the city centre. He had been shopping in a supermarket and was walking (presumably home) carrying his shopping. Therefore, I assumed that he was within walking distance of the supermarket - not terribly far away from where I actually live, or where his mother used to live.

I've tried scanning through the primary Council Tax list at the local Council offices, but couldn't see him, but I don't actually know what road he lives on, or at least lives on at the time. The Police do seem to know this, but even they weren't able to make contact with him. 

My father hadn't worked in decades - even though he was also a chartered accountant. He wasn't a popular chap in the places that he had worked earlier in his career, and found it difficult to hold down work due to his exceptionally arrogant and ultra aggressive personality (my uncle was the same - they were two peas in a rotten pod).

I'm not sure that I do have my father's NI number. I'm pretty sure that I do have my uncle's.  

Bearing in mind his age - have you tried the local council bereavement services - if he had passed they would probably have a record

Grumpelstiltskin

Have you thought that your father may not have actually changed his name but may be using a variation of his surname.

 Eg. Your user name is Davis, which could lead to Davies, Davy etc. Also if he has more than one first name he could have swapped them around.

Another thought could he be using his mother's surname?

Section62

poppystar said:

Tbh I’d want to be sure this was the correct person and not someone who had simply taken uncle’s ID, his money and set up a new life as him. I assume it’s too late for a DNA test to confirm this? Or was it part of the French authorities post death protocol to take a sample? But maybe that is my naturally suspicious mind! 

...

AIUI in France there is a statutory legal process regarding closing and sealing the coffin prior to burial or cremation.  A police officer and/or family member are required to be in attendance to verify the identity of the person immediately before closure (also that the coffin only contains one person, except in specific circumstances).

In cases where a family member isn't available, or the deceased hasn't been identified (or in emergency), the Mayor is able to authorise closure of the coffin, in the presence of an official.

Therefore I think it very unlikely that there's any kind of error here - if the French authorities hadn't been able to make a positive identification then it is likely one of the first things the OP would have been asked to do would be to assist in proving the identification.  Also, if there was doubt, then it would be very likely samples were taken for testing in any subsequent identification process.

French systems can be very different to ours so, for example, the lack of any liability in the UK shouldn't be assumed to apply in the same way in France.  Likewise their inheritance system is different, so if the uncle gained French citizenship (perhaps unlikely, but a possibility) then legal advice from someone who understands the French system would be a must.

rjsdavis

Section62 said:

poppystar said:

Tbh I’d want to be sure this was the correct person and not someone who had simply taken uncle’s ID, his money and set up a new life as him. I assume it’s too late for a DNA test to confirm this? Or was it part of the French authorities post death protocol to take a sample? But maybe that is my naturally suspicious mind! 

...

AIUI in France there is a statutory legal process regarding closing and sealing the coffin prior to burial or cremation.  A police officer and/or family member are required to be in attendance to verify the identity of the person immediately before closure (also that the coffin only contains one person, except in specific circumstances).

In cases where a family member isn't available, or the deceased hasn't been identified (or in emergency), the Mayor is able to authorise closure of the coffin, in the presence of an official.

Therefore I think it very unlikely that there's any kind of error here - if the French authorities hadn't been able to make a positive identification then it is likely one of the first things the OP would have been asked to do would be to assist in proving the identification.  Also, if there was doubt, then it would be very likely samples were taken for testing in any subsequent identification process.

French systems can be very different to ours so, for example, the lack of any liability in the UK shouldn't be assumed to apply in the same way in France.  Likewise their inheritance system is different, so if the uncle gained French citizenship (perhaps unlikely, but a possibility) then legal advice from someone who understands the French system would be a must.

Thanks - agree with this. 

Savvy_Sue

RAS said:

One very basic fact of which you need to be aware is that banks will pay funeral costs directly from bank accounts without probate. These have priority under normal dealings. The bill needs to be sent directly by the funeral director. It must happen thousands of times each year.

If you can speak to the bereavement departments at each of his banks, you may find that they can provide you with information about what they'd require from France to settle those bills? And perhaps decided whether his current burial place becomes his permanent one, providing you can buy the burial plot etc?

I wonder how often such requests arrive from abroad, however ... 

gwynlas said:

If you ave his bank details there might be a travel insurance element involved or given his frequent visits evidence of purchase of an annual policy which would cover death.

Excellent thought: when the OP gets access to bank cards that would be a sensible thing to check. 

gwynlas said:

If there is no evidence of a will that sets out wishes for internment I would simply arrange cremation in France and recover his cremains should you wish.

And actually, even if there is a will which sets out such wishes, it's one of the things you don't have to follow. 

rjsdavis

gwynlas said:

It might be that your uncle based himself in Folkestone in order to make frequent return trips to France living in an hotel for convenience.

If you ave his bank details there might be a travel insurance element involved or given his frequent visits evidence of purchase of an annual policy which would cover death.

If there is no evidence of a will that sets out wishes for internment I would simply arrange cremation in France and recover his cremains should you wish.

You really need to know if your own fathers circumstances as if your uncle was intestate he would take precedence over you in distribution of the estate

Yes, agree with this. 

But the crucial question remains: Where my father cannot be located by solicitors, the Police and/or anyone else - and refuses to engage and is making himself scarce (for whatever reason) - what happens then? 

Savvy_Sue

rjsdavis said:

gwynlas said:

It might be that your uncle based himself in Folkestone in order to make frequent return trips to France living in an hotel for convenience.

If you ave his bank details there might be a travel insurance element involved or given his frequent visits evidence of purchase of an annual policy which would cover death.

If there is no evidence of a will that sets out wishes for internment I would simply arrange cremation in France and recover his cremains should you wish.

You really need to know if your own fathers circumstances as if your uncle was intestate he would take precedence over you in distribution of the estate

Yes, agree with this. 

But the crucial question remains: Where my father cannot be located by solicitors, the Police and/or anyone else - and refuses to engage and is making himself scarce (for whatever reason) - what happens then? 

After seven years, https://www.gov.uk/get-declaration-presumed-death becomes an option ...