Unusual Probate Scenario & Estate Advice

rjsdavis

DE_612183 said:

question - how old is your Father?

how distinctive is his name?

you could try 192.com

also if you know a previous place of work that might lead you to a pension provider etc.

would you have somewhere his NI number?

There are Relative Finders who change about £500 - not sure if that constitutes burning through cash, as I appreciate your circumstances have to be taken into account as well.....

Thank you for your further reply. 

Father is now 81 (b. 1944)
Not particularly distinctive name, and I have tried 192.com on a number of occasions. No results. 

I used to have a reasonable idea of where he lived, as for a little while he lived in his mother's old house before it was sold, and then remained in the same area. I've seen him in the city several times over the years, and the last time I saw him was pre-Covid in the city centre. He had been shopping in a supermarket and was walking (presumably home) carrying his shopping. Therefore, I assumed that he was within walking distance of the supermarket - not terribly far away from where I actually live, or where his mother used to live.

I've tried scanning through the primary Council Tax list at the local Council offices, but couldn't see him, but I don't actually know what road he lives on, or at least lives on at the time. The Police do seem to know this, but even they weren't able to make contact with him. 

My father hadn't worked in decades - even though he was also a chartered accountant. He wasn't a popular chap in the places that he had worked earlier in his career, and found it difficult to hold down work due to his exceptionally arrogant and ultra aggressive personality (my uncle was the same - they were two peas in a rotten pod).

I'm not sure that I do have my father's NI number. I'm pretty sure that I do have my uncle's.  

Catonthemoon

Initially, I was in agreement with @p00hsticks - there is no legal obligation on you to deal with this. You, however, may feel that morally, it’s the right thing to do. A few thoughts:

(1) Your father: this would be so much easier if he could be located. You say you don’t even know if he’s still alive; as the Police haven’t knocked on your door about him, it’s more likely than not that he is. Bear in mind though, that when some people ‘disappear’, for reasons best known to themselves,  they just don’t want to be found. He could even have changed his name.

(2) From Chelsea to Folkestone. I seem to remember, albeit a few years ago, that the latter had numerous run down properties & budget hotels which were used to house asylum seekers. To have ended up there, having previously lived in one of the most affluent parts of London might suggest that a considerable change of circumstances occurred. 

(3) From my experience, Accountants tend to be very careful with money. That together with a Chelsea property, would suggest a person of some means. But…if he sold it a few years ago, he may have burned through it all by now.

(4) If he was a long term guest of the hotel in Folkestone, perhaps you could make enquiries with the owner as to how he was paying for his stay. If from benefits, that would seem to reaffirm (3) above; if he was funding it himself, there’s a good chance there’s some cash ‘somewhere’!

(5) Personal effects: I’m sure you would have mentioned if any info relating to Banks was included. He probably did all of his banking online, and unless he had made a written note of passwords/PIN’s (he might have memorised these), it’s going to be a job and a half to find out where his accounts (if any) are.

(6) His remains: are they going to be repatriated, which will be costly, or will you let the French take care of that (possibly a pauper’s funeral). Either way, now that they’ve got your details, I would imagine they would seek to pass on all the associated costs/expenses to you if you seem to be taking on responsibility for this.

(7) If you have the mindset of Colombo, you just might want to investigate and find out as much as you possibly can. In the end, you might find that there is no ‘pot of gold at the end of the rainbow’. 

(8) Will: assuming one was located, if you weren’t close it’s unlikely you would be a beneficiary, although you never know! There’s also the possibility that he could have left everything to Battersea Dogs Home.

A lot of ifs & buts I know. You said that, financially, you can’t afford to do this. If you did, what are the chances of you recouping that from his estate…that’s what I’d be asking myself.

Keep_pedalling

If the estate has sufficient funds you could engage a professional tracing service to track down your father. It would be fine to class any such cost as estate expenses. 

RAS

Basic autosomnal DNA costs less than £50 but it's too late for saliva tests. 

I'd ask the executors of your grandmother's estate how your uncle's death affects the distribution of her estate?

I'd ask the French authorities if they can release a notarised death certificate? Get mail and his possessions from the hotel, set up mail redirect. Collecting carrier bags of paperwork is not intermeddling. I'd presume the hotel want his room back and you need that before they bin it. 

It's also a chance to check if your father communicated with his brother at all?

I'm very surprised that the police haven't even able to check if your father's state pension has been paid in the last few decades.

Another thought, did your father and uncles have any slightly younger cousins? 

Savvy_Sue

I'd agree that tracing your father is probably best left to the executors of Grandmother's estate, although I'd pass on any information you have gleaned from the police or established for yourself. They'll have the contacts to do this. 

You may not be able to break into your uncle's devices, but it's possible a repair shop would be able to do so. However, once you have his wallet, you'll have a starting point for bank accounts. 

it might be worth finding a website for expats living in France to ask about your rights and responsibilities, see if anyone knows what happens in this kind of situation etc. 

sheramber

If he stayed in the Folkestone hotel a lot they may have some information of his circumstances. 

it is many years ago now but when my aunt owned a guest hose she has an elderly lady who stayed there full time. 

poppystar

Savvy_Sue said:

I'd agree that tracing your father is probably best left to the executors of Grandmother's estate, although I'd pass on any information you have gleaned from the police or established for yourself. They'll have the contacts to do this. 

You may not be able to break into your uncle's devices, but it's possible a repair shop would be able to do so. However, once you have his wallet, you'll have a starting point for bank accounts. 

it might be worth finding a website for expats living in France to ask about your rights and responsibilities, see if anyone knows what happens in this kind of situation etc. 

Also any expat groups local to the French hotel…unless uncle was fluent in French or a complete hermit, it would seem likely, given his frequent visits, that he might have other expat friends/drinking buddies/woman or man friend  etc there. As non family they would have been excluded from dealing with things after uncle’s death but may still have been closer and know more about his recent life than family. Certainly people I’ve met who are living an expat life, full or part time, have their own strong community inside the wider community. 

rjsdavis

Catonthemoon said:

Initially, I was in agreement with @p00hsticks - there is no legal obligation on you to deal with this. You, however, may feel that morally, it’s the right thing to do. A few thoughts:

(1) Your father: this would be so much easier if he could be located. You say you don’t even know if he’s still alive; as the Police haven’t knocked on your door about him, it’s more likely than not that he is. Bear in mind though, that when some people ‘disappear’, for reasons best known to themselves,  they just don’t want to be found. He could even have changed his name.

(2) From Chelsea to Folkestone. I seem to remember, albeit a few years ago, that the latter had numerous run down properties & budget hotels which were used to house asylum seekers. To have ended up there, having previously lived in one of the most affluent parts of London might suggest that a considerable change of circumstances occurred. 

(3) From my experience, Accountants tend to be very careful with money. That together with a Chelsea property, would suggest a person of some means. But…if he sold it a few years ago, he may have burned through it all by now.

(4) If he was a long term guest of the hotel in Folkestone, perhaps you could make enquiries with the owner as to how he was paying for his stay. If from benefits, that would seem to reaffirm (3) above; if he was funding it himself, there’s a good chance there’s some cash ‘somewhere’!

(5) Personal effects: I’m sure you would have mentioned if any info relating to Banks was included. He probably did all of his banking online, and unless he had made a written note of passwords/PIN’s (he might have memorised these), it’s going to be a job and a half to find out where his accounts (if any) are.

(6) His remains: are they going to be repatriated, which will be costly, or will you let the French take care of that (possibly a pauper’s funeral). Either way, now that they’ve got your details, I would imagine they would seek to pass on all the associated costs/expenses to you if you seem to be taking on responsibility for this.

(7) If you have the mindset of Colombo, you just might want to investigate and find out as much as you possibly can. In the end, you might find that there is no ‘pot of gold at the end of the rainbow’. 

(8) Will: assuming one was located, if you weren’t close it’s unlikely you would be a beneficiary, although you never know! There’s also the possibility that he could have left everything to Battersea Dogs Home.

A lot of ifs & buts I know. You said that, financially, you can’t afford to do this. If you did, what are the chances of you recouping that from his estate…that’s what I’d be asking myself.

Hello Cat

Thanks for your detailed reply - to come back to your points;

1: Exactly right, and I agree. It is more likely than not that he is still alive. Knowing him as I do, I think it's highly unlikely that he has changed his name, but I do think it's very likely that he simply doesn't want to be found. I wouldn't want to be found either if I'd done what he's done over the years. 

2: Maybe. I think it's more likely that he's just really, really tight, and and was trying to make his funds stretch as far as possible. He was a very tight individual to begin with, throw in a healthy dose of his accountancy caution, and I suspect that this is what's behind a lot of this. 

3: Indeed. 

4: Exactly so, and I will be down there shortly. I'm just waiting for a further response from the local Police Commander (who's been quite helpful so far), before I go. It might just give me a bit more to go on. 

5: Yes, bank cards are included in his wallet. I'm aware that he had a replacement bank card sent out to him to his hotel in France! There are account/s. 

6:  I cannot possibly afford repatriation. This is why I've been trying to uncover, right from the start, whether he has any travel insurance. The French authorities weren't aware of any. The Consulate isn't aware of any. The Police have informed me that there's no way that they could know. All I know is that his car *is* insured, so one thing that occurred to me was whether there was any sort of cover through that policy - although I think it's highly, highly unlikely.

7: There will be something. I just don't know what yet. 

8: Indeed, something that I've raised with the French authorities, as when I was first informed of what had happened, one of my earliest thoughts I assumed that he still lived in a UK property somewhere (I really figured that he would never have sold his beloved flat in London for anything), so that if there were a will, it would likely have had a copy there. Since he appears to have lived nowhere permanent, unless a copy is knocking about in the Folkestone hotel room, I can't even imagine where or how you'd track something like that down. If it's with a firm of solicitors somewhere, that could be any firm, anywhere. 

This is the question, and one of the primary reasons why I'm trying to work out if I would even be able to deal with his affairs, legally, in dealing with HMRC and then the Probate Court. I just don't know the answer to this - if I can, then fine, this is workable. If I can't, then there doesn't seem to be any point in doing anything at all - and then what? Simply leave whatever he has in a state of limbo until my father is either declared dead, or is actually dead, at which point I would then become the direct next of kin? 

This is the most important question that I need to answer right now.. 

rjsdavis

Keep_pedalling said:

If the estate has sufficient funds you could engage a professional tracing service to track down your father. It would be fine to class any such cost as estate expenses. 

I agree, however, I couldn't access any of my late uncle's estate assets, whatever they may be, unless I was authorised to do so by the Probate Court. 

I don't even know if they would accept a petition from me, or an application for Letters of Representation, in such circumstances. 

rjsdavis

RAS said:

Basic autosomnal DNA costs less than £50 but it's too late for saliva tests. 

I'd ask the executors of your grandmother's estate how your uncle's death affects the distribution of her estate?

I'd ask the French authorities if they can release a notarised death certificate? Get mail and his possessions from the hotel, set up mail redirect. Collecting carrier bags of paperwork is not intermeddling. I'd presume the hotel want his room back and you need that before they bin it. 

It's also a chance to check if your father communicated with his brother at all?

I'm very surprised that the police haven't even able to check if your father's state pension has been paid in the last few decades.

Another thought, did your father and uncles have any slightly younger cousins? 

I will indeed be going over to France, probably later next week, to start to deal with this. I don't know what, or how much I'll actually end up having handed to me. 

I've already been sent a scanned copy of the notarised death certificate by the Consulate. 

The French have already cleared out his room, and his possessions are now in the custody of the French authorities. I don't know what's going on with the hotel in Folkestone. Yet. 

No cousins - no other family. There was simply my father and his brother. The brother had no wife or children, so there's only my father, and then myself and my sister.