Should I pay for plumber who didn’t fix problem?

WIAWSNB

Darkangel said:

WIAWSNB said:

Darkangel said:

WIAWSNB said:

Who are these cowboys?

This is a sub-£100 repair, parts and labour. 

If it's the isolation valve that failed, then he should have diagnosed this the first time, and not delved into your cistern. You fix the valve by replacing it with an identical unit - same length. If the replacement is slightly different, you can tweak the overall length a few mm by either allowing the copper pipe to reposition in the fitting, slipping the olive a few mm, or by adding an extra fibre washer to provide an extra couple of mm, or by fitting a thinner washer inside the cistern. Or a combination.

Do NOT allow him the cowboy solution of a flexi - they are horrid.

This sounds like a 'paid under protest' solution, then you can chase them afterwards. 

Too late, they’ve fitted a flexi 🙈
I really didn’t feel confident or in a position to protest it but I didn’t pay £300 for it. 

They’ve gone now but as I was cleaning up I noticed the pipe (where it comes out of the wall) can be moved around. Assume it’s because there isn’t a rigid pipe holding it still anymore. 

Should it be filled in with something so it doesn’t move about?

Don't worry - as long as the flexi isn't an actual eyesore, it's fine :-)

It all smacks of basic craftsmanship, tho'. There are many plumbers who'd lose sleep at the thought of using a flexi in order to gain a tiny bit of movement!

Anyhoo, please post some photos, and we can advise on the 'filler' issue. 

Happy Non Drips. (Ie, they've gone - both of them...)

Photos of fitted flexi pipe. The plaster looks terrible. 

You can see a hole in the wall behind the plastic covering and the original bit of piping can be moved around. 

I also think it’s still leaking. You can see a drop of water on the nut directly under near the cistern. I’ve left a tray underneath to catch any drips. Really hope I’m wrong. 

That wall was neat around that collar before? 
I'm going to be kind to the cowboy, and suggest that it would've impossible to swap these fittings without that collar moving. And, the paint looks barely attached around there in any case :-)
The loose paint needs scraping off, a smear of filler applied to fill any dips, all sanded to get smooth, and a fresh coat of paint. 
It's typical collateral damage for a repair job. 
I'm hoping they didn't charge you any more labour? Only, perhaps, for the flexi? 
To see if that fitting is still leaking, dry it by pressing a tissue around it. Remove and observe.
Or, wrap a tissue around that bottom elbow.

bjorn_toby_wilde

Forget about filler and paint until the leak is fixed.

There’s nothing wrong with flexi connectors but this one is clearly leaking from the joint just below the valve where it’s connected to the pipe elbow. I can see the drops of water on the lowest nut in your picture. The water is seeping out past the threads because the “plumber” either didn’t tighten the fitting properly or didn’t use jointing compound.

All that’s needed is for a plumber (not the guy you used because I doubt he is a plumber) to turn off the water. flush the toilet to lower the pressure in the pipe. Undo the fitting and put some joint compound around the olive before retightening.

£300 is an absolute ripoff for this. £30 would be more like it!  Do not pay these cowboys a penny more.

Darkangel

I want to cry. The pipe is still leaking. 

I went out for a few hours and have come home to water in the tray. It’s not lots but still. 

I don’t know what to do now. I’m tired and frustrated and down a lot of money. If I get different plumber in then that’s another call out charge and labour to pay. 

kimwp

Hi darkangel, a couple of things:
1. My toilet cistern is plumbed the same way - flexible pipe - done by a previous owner who was very into DIY, but it hasn't leaked in the ten years I've been in this house (and I presume in the at least 15? Years before that. Please ignore the dust:


2. I attempted some plumbing last year with the help of the fab people on this forum, it might be a useful read.
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6539937/how-to-cap-off-15mm-water-pipe/p1


Your joint that appears to be leaking is called a compression joint, this video is a helpful watch:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KOxZE4zL6rE&pp=ygUJI19maXR0aW5n
As you can see, the joint is two pieces with screw threads that basically squish an "olive" between them and the pipe as they are screwed together and that fills in the gaps between all the parts and creates the seal.

There are all sorts of opinions as to whether jointing compound or PTFE tape is needed on compression fittings, or whether tightening it is enough. Personally if I were you, I'd double check where the leak is by putting bits of tissue round it below each joint and seeing which tissue gets wet. Then buy a couple of wrenches and tighten the joint a little bit (an eighth of a turn) and see if that stops the leak, if not, tighten it a little bit more. It will make a squeaky noise - this is everything rubbing together as the metal parts get tighter together, which is what you want, to create the seal.

It's possible that jointing compound or PTFE tape is needed, but that's more fiddly, requires the water to be turned off (and toilet flushed so there's no water in the cistern trying to drain out through the opened joint), the joint to be opened and a knowledge of where to put the compound or tape and where not to put it. All doable (by you), but just more to do and more to learn about. The compound or tape do the same thing, they fill in any tiny gaps between the metal of the pipe and the parts of the compression fittings that the tightening and deformation of the olive haven't closed up.

When I attempted it, there were lots of weird names, I didn't understand how the joint worked, what tools and parts were needed, so there were questions at literally every step. But you have us and useful internet videos and this is achievable. It is never a bad idea to have some DIY tools and a basic knowledge. If you don't want to buy wrenches, then probably neighbours or colleagues have them to borrow.

bjorn_toby_wilde

That’s good advice from @kimwp above.

Looking at the picture closer I can see a bead of water above the top nut. It may be that this is where it’s leaking and the water is then running down the flexi hose.

Once you locate it, just “nipping it up” with a wrench may do the trick as above.

Do you have a handy neighbour or friend you could ask to help? I only ask because it’s an easy fix for a competent DIYer.

As an aside can I ask where you found the plumber? It wasn’t through a firm called Rightio was it, because this sounds just like their work? My parents experienced their call charges and shoddy work. They fail to fix the problem then charge you again for a call out.  A recommendation from a friend or neighbour is usually the best way to find a reliable plumber.

WIAWSNB

Darkangel said:

I want to cry. The pipe is still leaking. 

I went out for a few hours and have come home to water in the tray. It’s not lots but still. 

I don’t know what to do now. I’m tired and frustrated and down a lot of money. If I get different plumber in then that’s another call out charge and labour to pay. 

It's ok.
I mean, it will be once they come out to sort it...
And that is what you need to do. And them.
Can I ask - why did this cost £300? It was only a drip, so not an emergency. Are they a 'national' or a local company?
For the future, get a recommendation for a trusty local plumber, who'd pop in on the way home from a big job, and sort that - properly - for £60. 
There's nothing inherently 'wrong' with flexis, except they don't look professional if on view, and they ultimately won't last as long as copper, as they have a 'rubber' tube inside.
I'm appalled that your plumber did not run this in copper, as the two parts to link are seemingly in line, and your cistern inlet is in brass, so not prone to the common issue of crossed threads.
Unless the existing copper pipe was always too short, then the length of it can be tweaked a few mm as I mentioned before. Or, to cut a new short piece of pipe is less than one minute's work. A reasonably-skilled plumber could put a tiny 'dogleg' in a copper pipe if actually required, and one with any regard for his profession - especially at this nutty cost - should have done so. A flexi is a DIYer's cop out, but hey.
Anyhoo, please confirm you haven't paid any extra from the second call out? Phew.

Get them back, point out the drip and then point out the leak, and ask them through clenched teeth to fix it 'properly' this time.

That's it.

Then email a letter of complaint to the manager, briefly outing what took place, the three visits, the inconvenience of having to be available each time, the disappointing resort to the DIYer's 'MickeyMouse' get-out of an unattractive flexi, that you need to make good the damaged plaster around the pipe collar, the outrageous cost for such a simple task which is easily doable well within one hour, and whether they consider the following review to be reasonable, before you post it...

stuart45

If you went through Checkatrade you can get up to £1,000 refunded.

WIAWSNB

stuart45 said:

If you went through Checkatrade you can get up to £1,000 refunded.

I suspect that 'angel is committed to that bill as she presumably knew what it would cost when she called them out. But, she hasn't confirmed. 

But, if this complete debacle is outlined in crisp B&W, especially in the form of a 'review', then I'd like to think they'd be as flexible as that pitiful pipe they installed.

WIAWSNB

No * out of 5.

"After discovering a steady drip coming from my cistern inlet pipe and concerned it could quickly become worse, I called out X on their 'emergency' service to come and sort it. Yes, I knew it was a high cost, but I was worried it was a sign of the pipe coming apart, and I couldn't risk having my home flooded.

They sent out 'M' (I won't give his full name to save him embarrassment), who attended quickly/late/after an hour. Although the drip was coming from outside the cistern, M explained he'd replaced a part inside, and added for me to 'not use it for a few hours', and 'for a drip to continue for a while is normal'. I've since been told that this suggests he used a setting sealant for the 'repair', which should NOT be required, and certainly should not be relied on. Also, a repair should BE a repair, and not one single drip should emanate afterwards.

I paid the painful £300 invoice, M departed, and a week later the drip was still there.

I called them up again. This time D came out (?), and he said it needed a new washer. He replaced this, and it still leaked. He then said that it was the isolating valve that was leaking, and added that the neat straight length of copper supply pipe also needed to be replaced, and fetched a 'flexi' pipe from his van. I'd been told that 'flexis' are a poor alternative to copper as they cannot last as long, and are certainly unattractive if on view (which this one is), but at this point I just wanted the leak sorted and for them to depart. So, alas, the cop-out flexi was fitted, and off they went.

It is still leaking, so I'll need to call them a third time. 

I've had confirmation since then that (a) a setting sealant should NOT have been used as a fix, (b) a fixed leak should NOT continue to drip, (c) there was NO requirement to replace the neat copper pipe with a 'cowboy' flexi; a 'proper' plumber should have enough pride to make copper fit. Oh, and the whole job should have taken well under 1 hour, so the £300 bill is extortionate. 

I will now do what I know should have done initially, and find myself a trustworthy local plumber of repute, and not X."

stuart45

WIAWSNB said:

stuart45 said:

If you went through Checkatrade you can get up to £1,000 refunded.

I suspect that 'angel is committed to that bill as she presumably knew what it would cost when she called them out. But, she hasn't confirmed. 

But, if this complete debacle is outlined in crisp B&W, especially in the form of a 'review', then I'd like to think they'd be as flexible as that pitiful pipe they installed.

With Checkatrade, they will refund for defective work, whatever the agreed price. Darkangel agreed to a price to fix a leak. The leak wasn't stopped, was they shouldn't get paid. 
I've finished jobs for people who've got refunds from Checkatrade. Just done one where they got the full £1,000 back. 
All a customer needs to do is leave a review with a low rating. Checkatrade will email straight back asking for more details. In this last case the builder refused to answer their emails, so they had no choice but to offer the full amount.
I wouldn't have paid for this job until the leak was fixed.