Should I pay for plumber who didn’t fix problem?

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nofoollikeold said:

1. To tell you "not to use it for a few hours and that it may leak for a little bit" is in my opinion nonsense.  
2. The only reason not to use it would be if it had been sealed with some form of silicone sealant, most of which take some time to dry.  There is no need to use silicone sealant on a WC.  
3. Leaks rarely dry up on their own, so if it "leaks for a little bit" it's always going to leak.  
4. Sounds to me as if the "plumber" didn't know what they were doing.  I'd be loathe to have the same firm back.  

Point number one is the massive warning.

I've fallen for it when I finally decided to go for a smart meter. The gas was not showing on the IDH and the engineer sasi "it may take a few hours but you will be ok," and as you know, it was not.

We all fall for stuff like this. It is about being educated and more aware the next time. These days I rarely accept an answer that I feel is not the full picture and then ask, "what if" questions.

WIAWSNB

Hi Darkangel.

This is an external leak - ie water is getting out of the cistern around the inlet pipe, and dripping on to the floor?

You say he replaced something inside - that would likely have been a rubber washer. That should have sorted the issue, but you also mention he asked yo to leave it for a while; as others have said, that suggests the use of an applied sealant. This isn't usually required, so I wonder if he didn't replace the washer, but just gave it a coat of sealant? And this has seemingly not worked.

Ok, his 'repair' was a bit of a bodge, but in 99% of cases it would likely have worked fine. In which case, you'd be none the wiser, and all would be ok!

There is another possibility - he may have fixed that 'cistern' leak, but it's now dripping from the pipe connection fitting under your cistern from him having dismantled it. 

Could you try drying that whole fitting with tissue, and then observing the fitting closely, ideally with a torch, and seeing where the seep originates from? A photo would be great.

Bottom line - you paid him to fix this, and he didn't succeed. So, he should now do so at zero additional cost. The only exception is if, for example, he now discovers that the original cause was that the inlet was (always) damaged, and needs replacing. In this case, I'd expect the cost of parts to be added. But, yes, he should have noticed this the first time, and if he claims this, you'll likely never know if it was true...

So, imo, there should certainly be zero additional 'labour' charge. There 'may' be a parts cost, but this should be minimal - £5 or so. (And it would be churlish of them to even ask for this...)

I'm going to suggest something that may make you feel uncomfortable; when he comes to your door, set your phone recording discretely (or do you have internal cameras?). This is legal, and will ONLY be used to support a valid claim against them, if needed. Otherwise it'll be erased.

Ask him to explain clearly what was wrong the 'first' time, what he tried, and why he thinks it didn't work. Again, a bit awk's, but ask in a, "I'm really curious and interested..." manner. 

If you get the impression that he's trying it on, and tries to levy an additional and, you suspect, unjustifiable charge, then an option is to pay up if you find it hard not to, but explain you feel it isn't 'right', and you will have to add 'paid under protest' on any receipt, or - if he uses a phone app - he must provide the ability to add this comment or else you'll refuse. 

Explain you'll be asking for opinions of what's happened, and may well be making a MoneyClaim.gov against them. 

Then report back to us.

Good luck - it's horrible, I know. But you will never be using them again after this! (Unless they come up trumps this time :-) )

Darkangel

WIAWSNB said:

Hi Darkangel.

This is an external leak - ie water is getting out of the cistern around the inlet pipe, and dripping on to the floor?

You say he replaced something inside - that would likely have been a rubber washer. That should have sorted the issue, but you also mention he asked yo to leave it for a while; as others have said, that suggests the use of an applied sealant. This isn't usually required, so I wonder if he didn't replace the washer, but just gave it a coat of sealant? And this has seemingly not worked.

Ok, his 'repair' was a bit of a bodge, but in 99% of cases it would likely have worked fine. In which case, you'd be none the wiser, and all would be ok!

There is another possibility - he may have fixed that 'cistern' leak, but it's now dripping from the pipe connection fitting under your cistern from him having dismantled it. 

Could you try drying that whole fitting with tissue, and then observing the fitting closely, ideally with a torch, and seeing where the seep originates from? A photo would be great.

Bottom line - you paid him to fix this, and he didn't succeed. So, he should now do so at zero additional cost. The only exception is if, for example, he now discovers that the original cause was that the inlet was (always) damaged, and needs replacing. In this case, I'd expect the cost of parts to be added. But, yes, he should have noticed this the first time, and if he claims this, you'll likely never know if it was true...

So, imo, there should certainly be zero additional 'labour' charge. There 'may' be a parts cost, but this should be minimal - £5 or so. (And it would be churlish of them to even ask for this...)

I'm going to suggest something that may make you feel uncomfortable; when he comes to your door, set your phone recording discretely (or do you have internal cameras?). This is legal, and will ONLY be used to support a valid claim against them, if needed. Otherwise it'll be erased.

Ask him to explain clearly what was wrong the 'first' time, what he tried, and why he thinks it didn't work. Again, a bit awk's, but ask in a, "I'm really curious and interested..." manner. 

If you get the impression that he's trying it on, and tries to levy an additional and, you suspect, unjustifiable charge, then an option is to pay up if you find it hard not to, but explain you feel it isn't 'right', and you will have to add 'paid under protest' on any receipt, or - if he uses a phone app - he must provide the ability to add this comment or else you'll refuse. 

Explain you'll be asking for opinions of what's happened, and may well be making a MoneyClaim.gov against them. 

Then report back to us.

Good luck - it's horrible, I know. But you will never be using them again after this! (Unless they come up trumps this time :-) )

Plumber is here now. 

He tried replacing the washer but it’s still leaking. Now tells me it’s the isolation valve that has failed, but don’t worry he’ll fix it. 

He’s just disappeared off to his van (he asked his colleague earlier to see if they had flexi pipe). 

Edit: still leaking after replacement washer. He’s now saying the whole inlet pipe needs to be replaced because it is coming in at an angle, putting strain on the fitting causing it to fail. Approx £300 inc. VAT to fix 😭

WIAWSNB

Darkangel said:

WIAWSNB said:

Hi Darkangel.

This is an external leak - ie water is getting out of the cistern around the inlet pipe, and dripping on to the floor?

You say he replaced something inside - that would likely have been a rubber washer. That should have sorted the issue, but you also mention he asked yo to leave it for a while; as others have said, that suggests the use of an applied sealant. This isn't usually required, so I wonder if he didn't replace the washer, but just gave it a coat of sealant? And this has seemingly not worked.

Ok, his 'repair' was a bit of a bodge, but in 99% of cases it would likely have worked fine. In which case, you'd be none the wiser, and all would be ok!

There is another possibility - he may have fixed that 'cistern' leak, but it's now dripping from the pipe connection fitting under your cistern from him having dismantled it. 

Could you try drying that whole fitting with tissue, and then observing the fitting closely, ideally with a torch, and seeing where the seep originates from? A photo would be great.

Bottom line - you paid him to fix this, and he didn't succeed. So, he should now do so at zero additional cost. The only exception is if, for example, he now discovers that the original cause was that the inlet was (always) damaged, and needs replacing. In this case, I'd expect the cost of parts to be added. But, yes, he should have noticed this the first time, and if he claims this, you'll likely never know if it was true...

So, imo, there should certainly be zero additional 'labour' charge. There 'may' be a parts cost, but this should be minimal - £5 or so. (And it would be churlish of them to even ask for this...)

I'm going to suggest something that may make you feel uncomfortable; when he comes to your door, set your phone recording discretely (or do you have internal cameras?). This is legal, and will ONLY be used to support a valid claim against them, if needed. Otherwise it'll be erased.

Ask him to explain clearly what was wrong the 'first' time, what he tried, and why he thinks it didn't work. Again, a bit awk's, but ask in a, "I'm really curious and interested..." manner. 

If you get the impression that he's trying it on, and tries to levy an additional and, you suspect, unjustifiable charge, then an option is to pay up if you find it hard not to, but explain you feel it isn't 'right', and you will have to add 'paid under protest' on any receipt, or - if he uses a phone app - he must provide the ability to add this comment or else you'll refuse. 

Explain you'll be asking for opinions of what's happened, and may well be making a MoneyClaim.gov against them. 

Then report back to us.

Good luck - it's horrible, I know. But you will never be using them again after this! (Unless they come up trumps this time :-) )

Plumber is here now. 

He tried replacing the washer but it’s still leaking. Now tells me it’s the isolation valve that has failed, but don’t worry he’ll fix it. 

He’s just disappeared off to his van (he asked his colleague earlier to see if they had flexi pipe). 

Edit: still leaking after replacement washer. He’s now saying the whole inlet pipe needs to be replaced because it is coming in at an angle, putting strain on the fitting causing it to fail. Approx £300 inc. VAT to fix 😭

Who are these cowboys?

This is a sub-£100 repair, parts and labour. 

If it's the isolation valve that failed, then he should have diagnosed this the first time, and not delved into your cistern. You fix the valve by replacing it with an identical unit - same length. If the replacement is slightly different, you can tweak the overall length a few mm by either allowing the copper pipe to reposition in the fitting, slipping the olive a few mm, or by adding an extra fibre washer to provide an extra couple of mm, or by fitting a thinner washer inside the cistern. Or a combination.

Do NOT allow him the cowboy solution of a flexi - they are horrid.

This sounds like a 'paid under protest' solution, then you can chase them afterwards. 

stuart45

Put a few photos on.

Darkangel

WIAWSNB said:

Darkangel said:

WIAWSNB said:

Hi Darkangel.

This is an external leak - ie water is getting out of the cistern around the inlet pipe, and dripping on to the floor?

You say he replaced something inside - that would likely have been a rubber washer. That should have sorted the issue, but you also mention he asked yo to leave it for a while; as others have said, that suggests the use of an applied sealant. This isn't usually required, so I wonder if he didn't replace the washer, but just gave it a coat of sealant? And this has seemingly not worked.

Ok, his 'repair' was a bit of a bodge, but in 99% of cases it would likely have worked fine. In which case, you'd be none the wiser, and all would be ok!

There is another possibility - he may have fixed that 'cistern' leak, but it's now dripping from the pipe connection fitting under your cistern from him having dismantled it. 

Could you try drying that whole fitting with tissue, and then observing the fitting closely, ideally with a torch, and seeing where the seep originates from? A photo would be great.

Bottom line - you paid him to fix this, and he didn't succeed. So, he should now do so at zero additional cost. The only exception is if, for example, he now discovers that the original cause was that the inlet was (always) damaged, and needs replacing. In this case, I'd expect the cost of parts to be added. But, yes, he should have noticed this the first time, and if he claims this, you'll likely never know if it was true...

So, imo, there should certainly be zero additional 'labour' charge. There 'may' be a parts cost, but this should be minimal - £5 or so. (And it would be churlish of them to even ask for this...)

I'm going to suggest something that may make you feel uncomfortable; when he comes to your door, set your phone recording discretely (or do you have internal cameras?). This is legal, and will ONLY be used to support a valid claim against them, if needed. Otherwise it'll be erased.

Ask him to explain clearly what was wrong the 'first' time, what he tried, and why he thinks it didn't work. Again, a bit awk's, but ask in a, "I'm really curious and interested..." manner. 

If you get the impression that he's trying it on, and tries to levy an additional and, you suspect, unjustifiable charge, then an option is to pay up if you find it hard not to, but explain you feel it isn't 'right', and you will have to add 'paid under protest' on any receipt, or - if he uses a phone app - he must provide the ability to add this comment or else you'll refuse. 

Explain you'll be asking for opinions of what's happened, and may well be making a MoneyClaim.gov against them. 

Then report back to us.

Good luck - it's horrible, I know. But you will never be using them again after this! (Unless they come up trumps this time :-) )

Plumber is here now. 

He tried replacing the washer but it’s still leaking. Now tells me it’s the isolation valve that has failed, but don’t worry he’ll fix it. 

He’s just disappeared off to his van (he asked his colleague earlier to see if they had flexi pipe). 

Edit: still leaking after replacement washer. He’s now saying the whole inlet pipe needs to be replaced because it is coming in at an angle, putting strain on the fitting causing it to fail. Approx £300 inc. VAT to fix 😭

Who are these cowboys?

This is a sub-£100 repair, parts and labour. 

If it's the isolation valve that failed, then he should have diagnosed this the first time, and not delved into your cistern. You fix the valve by replacing it with an identical unit - same length. If the replacement is slightly different, you can tweak the overall length a few mm by either allowing the copper pipe to reposition in the fitting, slipping the olive a few mm, or by adding an extra fibre washer to provide an extra couple of mm, or by fitting a thinner washer inside the cistern. Or a combination.

Do NOT allow him the cowboy solution of a flexi - they are horrid.

This sounds like a 'paid under protest' solution, then you can chase them afterwards. 

Too late, they’ve fitted a flexi 🙈
I really didn’t feel confident or in a position to protest it but I didn’t pay £300 for it. 

They’ve gone now but as I was cleaning up I noticed the pipe (where it comes out of the wall) can be moved around. Assume it’s because there isn’t a rigid pipe holding it still anymore. 

Should it be filled in with something so it doesn’t move about?

kimwp

You are not alone dark angel, I feel the same with some workmen, it's easy to be taken for a ride (or just not get exactly what you thought you were asking for or not be sure it was the right solution)

WIAWSNB

Darkangel said:

WIAWSNB said:

Who are these cowboys?

This is a sub-£100 repair, parts and labour. 

If it's the isolation valve that failed, then he should have diagnosed this the first time, and not delved into your cistern. You fix the valve by replacing it with an identical unit - same length. If the replacement is slightly different, you can tweak the overall length a few mm by either allowing the copper pipe to reposition in the fitting, slipping the olive a few mm, or by adding an extra fibre washer to provide an extra couple of mm, or by fitting a thinner washer inside the cistern. Or a combination.

Do NOT allow him the cowboy solution of a flexi - they are horrid.

This sounds like a 'paid under protest' solution, then you can chase them afterwards. 

Too late, they’ve fitted a flexi 🙈
I really didn’t feel confident or in a position to protest it but I didn’t pay £300 for it. 

They’ve gone now but as I was cleaning up I noticed the pipe (where it comes out of the wall) can be moved around. Assume it’s because there isn’t a rigid pipe holding it still anymore. 

Should it be filled in with something so it doesn’t move about?

Don't worry - as long as the flexi isn't an actual eyesore, it's fine :-)

It all smacks of basic craftsmanship, tho'. There are many plumbers who'd lose sleep at the thought of using a flexi in order to gain a tiny bit of movement!

Anyhoo, please post some photos, and we can advise on the 'filler' issue. 

Happy Non Drips. (Ie, they've gone - both of them...)

Darkangel

WIAWSNB said:

Darkangel said:

WIAWSNB said:

Who are these cowboys?

This is a sub-£100 repair, parts and labour. 

If it's the isolation valve that failed, then he should have diagnosed this the first time, and not delved into your cistern. You fix the valve by replacing it with an identical unit - same length. If the replacement is slightly different, you can tweak the overall length a few mm by either allowing the copper pipe to reposition in the fitting, slipping the olive a few mm, or by adding an extra fibre washer to provide an extra couple of mm, or by fitting a thinner washer inside the cistern. Or a combination.

Do NOT allow him the cowboy solution of a flexi - they are horrid.

This sounds like a 'paid under protest' solution, then you can chase them afterwards. 

Too late, they’ve fitted a flexi 🙈
I really didn’t feel confident or in a position to protest it but I didn’t pay £300 for it. 

They’ve gone now but as I was cleaning up I noticed the pipe (where it comes out of the wall) can be moved around. Assume it’s because there isn’t a rigid pipe holding it still anymore. 

Should it be filled in with something so it doesn’t move about?

Don't worry - as long as the flexi isn't an actual eyesore, it's fine :-)

It all smacks of basic craftsmanship, tho'. There are many plumbers who'd lose sleep at the thought of using a flexi in order to gain a tiny bit of movement!

Anyhoo, please post some photos, and we can advise on the 'filler' issue. 

Happy Non Drips. (Ie, they've gone - both of them...)

Photos of fitted flexi pipe. The plaster looks terrible. 

You can see a hole in the wall behind the plastic covering and the original bit of piping can be moved around. 

I also think it’s still leaking. You can see a drop of water on the nut directly under near the cistern. I’ve left a tray underneath to catch any drips. Really hope I’m wrong. 

MeteredOut

A paper towel or some toilet paper in the dish will make it easier to see if it is still leaking.