Football shirt refund

d0nnyoz

Just an update....

I contacted Consumer Advice Scotland who have now responded to say that any enquiry/request to Trading Standards should be done locally. They will then investigate and then decide on what my next step is. I have now contacted my local CAB asking them about directing my enquiry to Trading Standards.
I have given them a synopsis of the issue and my preferred course of action. They say they will respond within 2-3 days.

Jumblebumble

Okell said:

Ergates said:

In some ways their actual Terms and Conditions aren't wrong.   The error is that they don't apply in this situation.

*IF* a customer has personalised something, then it can't be returned.  This is a fine.   

But - you *haven't* personalised it, so it's irrelevant.

But I would argue that their T&Cs are wrong - and are potentially illegal - for at least three reasons:

1.  they say that "We regret that we are unable to cancel orders for personalised items - including all form of printed shirts, both personal and player names - once the personalisation process has begun."   Regarding the bit I've put in bold, it can't possibly be compliant with the CCRs to say that they can't cancel "all form of printed shirt" - they can only refuse to cancel personalised ones - and, as everyone except UKSoccerShop agrees, this shirt wasn't personalised.  Uksoccershop FAQs: Terms and Conditions

2.  Although they do say that the consumer has 14 days from delivery in which to cancel a contract, they do not explain that the consumer has a further 14 days after that in which to return the goods.  That is misleading and I would argue wrong.

3.  Under the T&C heading "Cancellation" they say they won't accept returns unless they are in their original packaging.  As a trader they cannot refuse to accept a cancellation (and related return) provided they have been notified of the cancellation within 14 days of delivery and provided the goods have been sent back within a further 14 days of that notification.  The best they can do is reduce the consumer's refund to reflect any dimunition in the loss of value.  I can't believe the absence of the original packaging would reduce the shirt's value to zero.

I would argue that all three of the above points are statements or representations that could mislead consumers as to their cancellation rights under the CCRs, and could possibly amount to breaches of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading regs

We could add the fact that whilst they claim they are unable to cancel orders there is absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so
They may be unwilling however

d0nnyoz

I have now compiled a letter (not sure I would call it a 'Letter before claim') as I have had an online chat session with Citizens Advice who suggested a letter explaing my position to see if they decided amicably to settle this. I have given them 14 days to respond.

Another point of note here is that UKsoccershop, it seems to me, have changed their product pages on their website. Previously, a lot (and I mean 'most') of their shirts/products had a drop-down box to select a name/number and then another drop-down to select the size. This has changed mysteriously over the last few days.
Now, when you chose a shirt/product, you get to choose the size and then there is another 'section' which asks you to select a player name/number but with bold words stating 'Optional'.
This is completely new and the cynical side of me things they have decided to change this selection to ensure that customers are now specifically choosing the printing otherwise it is optional. So their refunds policy may be valid now, but its a case of proving this was not the case previously. Now, I'm heavily involved in tech and was a developer previously (for what its worth, I was one of the original developers on the BBC iPlayer project!), so if they are using versioning then this could easily be demanded as evidence if it goes that far. But just thought it was odd that these product pages have now changed!?!

Okell

What have CAB advised you to put in this letter?

d0nnyoz

Okell said:

What have CAB advised you to put in this letter?

Sadly, I didn't get a transcript of my webchat! I did get a reference number though so I should be able to get back to them ans ask them.

But basically it was more of courteous letter stating all f the facts regarding the purchase and the subsequent correspondence regarding the return. I then stated a lot of the discussion on here WRT Consumer law and guidance.
Finally I stated they had 14 days to respond and agree to my request I would take the matter further.

CAB actually agreed with me that by choosing a name/number from a pre-populated list was not personalisation and they should accept the return. We'll see.
I'm contacting CAB to ask for a copy of the transcript using my reference number.

Okell

d0nnyoz said:

Okell said:

What have CAB advised you to put in this letter?

... CAB actually agreed with me that by choosing a name/number from a pre-populated list was not personalisation and they should accept the return...

You sound a bit surprised that CAB confirmed what I and several other posters had already told you umpteen times on this thread.  Did you expect CAB to tell you that we'd made up that part of the law and that it wasn't true?

More interestingly, what did CAB say about the other issues that are raised by your case?  For example:

1.  Did you clearly inform the trader within 14 days of receiving the goods that you were cancelling the contract, or did you just request an exchange for a different size? 

2.  Have you any evidence of sending the goods back within 14 days of informing the trader that you were cancelling the contract?

3.  Do CAB have a view as to whether the trader's T&Cs comply with the requirements of para 31 of The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013, and if not, whether the windows for cancellation and for return of goods (as referred to in 1. and 2. above) are accordingly extended?

4.  If the trader wrongly informs you that you cannot cancel the contract and cannot return the goods, how does that affect 1. and 2. above?

screech_78

Personally, I wouldn’t waste my time with CAB.

There are a few posters who have replied to you on here who are much more knowledgeable. 

Send the letter before action. My feeling is they probably won’t respond (which they’re entitled to do) so you then go down the small claims route. 

d0nnyoz

Thanks both @Okell and @screech_78
I value your opinions much, MUCH more than CAB. I have had dealings with CAB previously (unrelated) and I found them just going through the motions TBH. I'm sure they are good in some areas but I think the advice on here outweighs anything I could get from CAB. I just wanted to make sure I was going through the right channels, and as has been stated previously, the only way to Trading Standards is via CAB!

But to confirm your thoughts @Okell, CAB did ask me about the return time periods and confirmed the 14 day rule was in effect and that I had informed them within that timeframe.
Although one slight fly in the ointment right now is that I haven't actually send the item back?? Should I do that?
The main issue with that is to send an item back, you need a returns form which is requested via their order page, and of course when I request this for the shirt I purchased, I get the error message as previously posted saying I can't!
I could of course just send it back with all of the order details and note to say I am returning it and relate to the timescales etc, but I fear UKsoccershop will misplace the item and concede no knowledge of it because their systems don't recognise the return. And then I would lose my evidence/garment and be down £70!

Okell

@d0nnyoz -  ok, if you think you have got as far as you can with them and you've tried all you can to explain to them why they are wrong, then - as @screech78 has said - you either go ahead with a Letter Before Claim or you write off the £70.

I'm not a lawyer so what follows is not "legal advice"

Some people will tell you that before you send a LBC you need to be committed to issuing a court claim if the trader doesn't cough up.  But the point of sending a LBC is that it doesn't commit you to carrying out the threat to sue, and the benefit of sending a LBC is that some traders might simply pay up once they receive one.

If you send a LBC and UKSoccerShop don't comply, you need to make your own mind up if you want to sue.  Again, if you issue a claim UKSoccerShop might just pay up if they realise you are being serious.  But if they don't and it gets as far as court, then as I've said before, there is no guarantee that you will win and you might be risking losing the issue fee as well.  Suing is never risk free.  Understood?

It's up to you.

You've seen all the repsonses on here and I think the clear consensus is that what UKSoccerShop is telling you is wrong, and that you have a valid argument for cancelling the contract for a full refund.  

The problems I think I can see in your argument and which you need to think about are as follows:

1.  It's not clear to me what you originally told the trader.  Did you ask for an exchange for a larger size, or for a refund or what?

2.  Sounds to me like you only clearly told the trader that you wanted to cancel the contract outside 14 days.  You received the shirt on 31 May but you only mentioned the word "cancel" on 16 June?

3.  Technically you should have returned the shirt within 14 days of telling them you were cancelling.  No later than 28 days after receiving the shirt...

In answer to 1. and 2. I don't know exactly what discussions you had with the trader, but depending on what you told them you could try arguing that it should have been obvious to the trader that you were cancelling the contract - even though you only used the phrase cancel after 14 days had expired.  I think you could also argue that the trader's T&Cs had misled you into wrongly thinking that you could not cancel the contract, and it was only when you realised you had been misled that you tried to cancel.  None of this is ideal from your point of view, but you are where you are and need to try everything.

Regarding 3. yes, not sending the shirt back might be a problem.  I understand why you want to hold on to it and I understand that you don't want the trader to charge you extra to send it back to you again.  If you don't send it back then I think your best bet is again to argue that you haven't done so because (a) the trader's T&Cs had misled you into thinking that you could not cancel the contract and return the item, and (b) the trader has explicitly told you that if you do return the shirt then they will simply send it back to you again and charge you the additional postage.  So you haven't returned the shirt because the trader has misled you into thinking you can't.  Again this is not ideal from your point of view but you are where you are.

Regarding 2. and 3. there is one more important thing that helps you and which might overcome any difficulties as to whether you cancelled in time and as to whather you should have returned the goods.

The Cancellation Regulations require the trader to supply you with information telling you about your statutory right to cancel.  While their T&Cs do tell you that you have 14 days in which to cancel a distance contract, they don't tell you that you have a further 14 days in which to return the shirt.  They also wrongly tell you that if you don't return the goods in their original packaging then you cannot cancel the contract.  That is wrong.  They can't stop you from exercising your right to cancel - all they can do is reduce any refund due to you to reflect any loss of value in the goods.  So they are not fully informing you of your right to cancel.  Do you follow?

If the trader does not fully inform you of your stautory right to cancel, then the 14 day cancellation window (and subsequent 14 days to return) is extended by up to a year.  Do you see?  If this applies here the fact you might have missed the 14 days to cancel is no longer important.

Just two other things to note: first, I have no idea how the Scottish Simple Procedure works.  I assume you have to send something like a Letter Before Claim as you would in England, but I really don't know.  Unless somebody else here can help you, you'll need to do your own research.

Second, when you do a LBC (or whatever it is in Scotland) you don't need to go into a great deal of detail about what your claim is.  Just sufficient detail for them to understand what your legal case is based on.  Do a Google search and look for examples.

As I've said several times, if this gets as far as court there is no guarantee you will win, but good luck!


[NB  -  I'm really in two minds as to whether you should just send the shirt back ASAP.  I think it puts you in a stronger position regarding the letter of the law if you do, but I don't know.  If you do send it back, make sure you keep evidence that you have sent it back]

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

d0nnyoz said:

The main issue with that is to send an item back, you need a returns form which is requested via their order page, and of course when I request this for the shirt I purchased, I get the error message as previously posted saying I can't!
I could of course just send it back with all of the order details and note to say I am returning it and relate to the timescales etc, but I fear UKsoccershop will misplace the item and concede no knowledge of it because their systems don't recognise the return. And then I would lose my evidence/garment and be down £70!

IMO you should send it back, there is no obligation to provide any kind of paperwork or such with the goods as far as the CCRs go, simply common sense is required that you include a bit of paper with your details on and say why you are returning. 

Them saying you didn't use their specific form has no weight at all.

Would be interesting to know if they've supplied or made available a model cancellation form as failing to do that means 1) the consumer is not bound by the contract 2) it would be a great argument against any claim they lost it because you didn't use a set form they refuse to let you access. 

Model Cancellation Form is here OP:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/schedule/3

If they gave you anything similar to this (either by email, with the goods or available to copy & paste/download on their website) fill it in and send it back with the goods.

If they don't provide it then that's their short coming.