short term right to reject on a used car - Issues since day 1

julesw1lko

Heya folks,
Wondering if I can get some help / advice. 
We bought a 4 year old used car from a dealership called Carsa in Bolton in October last year. 
The car has had issues since day 1 - and it was evident, their pre sales 200 point checks, completely missed the egg on the sidewall, windscreen trim failing, and a front bumper crash (as when I had to change a bulb, I found all the clips were instead glued!)

The car was supposed to go in to Ford for work on the electrical faults in December... and Carsa went silent after 5 or 6 previous returns to the branch. 

I chased and chased for *months* before they did eventually get back to us - And they had a change of plan, so, they were going to have an electrician specialist look at things, and sort out the roof lining that was coming off.
That took a month. 
And after a month, the roof lining hadn't been looked at, and the car was returned to us with more electrical faults, and body work damage. 

We've basically now said - The car is a lemon, and we want to either get a refund, or an exchange. 

Carsa want to charge 45p a mile for the refund. 
Bearing in mind we've had the car for 5 months of driving - The mileage accrued is not our fault - It's not like we haven't sent hundreds of emails and made hundreds of phone calls trying to get hold of them. 

They are saying 45p for a return, or 35p for an exchange is a full and final fair offer.

Not acknowledging our consequential losses of having used 5 days of leave sat waiting in the garage, hundreds of miles driven back and forth to Bolton and so on. 
Let alone we have had to do *all* the chasing. 

Given the faults with the car were there from day 1, and we have effectively never had a fault free driving experience, what are our grounds next? 

We asked a week ago whether they were part of any dispute resolution schemes, but no reply. 

Trading Standards have tried to help, but they can't offer any advice of the 45p issue. 

Given the horrendous ignorance by Carsa (they even took the better part of a month to reply to a complaint!) - it feels unjust. 

born_again

julesw1lko said:

Heya folks,
Wondering if I can get some help / advice. 
We bought a 4 year old used car from a dealership called Carsa in Bolton in October last year. 
The car has had issues since day 1 - and it was evident, their pre sales 200 point checks, completely missed the egg on the sidewall, windscreen trim failing, and a front bumper crash (as when I had to change a bulb, I found all the clips were instead glued!)

The car was supposed to go in to Ford for work on the electrical faults in December... and Carsa went silent after 5 or 6 previous returns to the branch. 

I chased and chased for *months* before they did eventually get back to us - And they had a change of plan, so, they were going to have an electrician specialist look at things, and sort out the roof lining that was coming off.
That took a month. 
And after a month, the roof lining hadn't been looked at, and the car was returned to us with more electrical faults, and body work damage. 

We've basically now said - The car is a lemon, and we want to either get a refund, or an exchange. 

Carsa want to charge 45p a mile for the refund. 
Bearing in mind we've had the car for 5 months of driving - The mileage accrued is not our fault - It's not like we haven't sent hundreds of emails and made hundreds of phone calls trying to get hold of them. 

They are saying 45p for a return, or 35p for an exchange is a full and final fair offer.

Not acknowledging our consequential losses of having used 5 days of leave sat waiting in the garage, hundreds of miles driven back and forth to Bolton and so on. 
Let alone we have had to do *all* the chasing. 

Given the faults with the car were there from day 1, and we have effectively never had a fault free driving experience, what are our grounds next? 

We asked a week ago whether they were part of any dispute resolution schemes, but no reply. 

Trading Standards have tried to help, but they can't offer any advice of the 45p issue. 

Given the horrendous ignorance by Carsa (they even took the better part of a month to reply to a complaint!) - it feels unjust. 

In reality when you told them you were rejecting the car. You should have returned it to them & left it there. Continuing to use the car is never a good idea.

As you kept the car & have kept driving it, they are entitled to charge for the mileage. 45p seems to be a rate used, as it matches the GOV allowance.

Whether it is fair or not is another matter.

julesw1lko

We've only just rejected the car after they've taken a month to not fix the issues, and it being returned with new faults and others unfixed. 

Is it our fault they'd taken this long - given we've chased and chased and chased and chased and given them the car for a month plus a further 5 days of garage visits? 

Okell

[Edit:  cross-posted with @julesw1lko ]

If you've been driving the car on and off for 5 months and it's been back to the trader several times then there's no way you can exercise the short term right to reject which would have prevented the trader from charging you mileage.

The short term right only lasts for 30 days from delivery, but it is paused if you agree to a repair or a replacement.  However, the clock starts running again once you get the car back.   For you the short term right to reject must have expired months ago.  (If you want to see how it works in detail it's here in s22 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 )

Also, as @born_again has said, if you were rejecting the car you should have stopped using it.

Regarding what the trader wants to charge you, they are entitled to charge you for your "use" of the vehicle while you have had it.  The law does not define how your use of the vehicle is to be calculated.  It doesn't say 10p, or 25p, or 35p, or 45p, or 60p per mile.  It's whatever you can agree with the trader.  The gov allowance might be 45p but who is to say that that is the appropriate rate in the context of rejecting a car under the Consumer Rights Act 2015?

Out of curiosity, how on earth did you get Trading Standards to talk to you at all?  I'm not surprised they wouldn't adise you on the 45p, but I am surprised you had contact at all.  Do you mean Citizens Advice rather than TS?

julesw1lko

Ahh - Sorry  - Did mean citizens advice. 

As stated again - faults since day 1 never resolved. 
They didn't take the car until March, even with talking to them about the faults since day 1 - (So - The pause surely will have lasted?)
Carsa had the car for a month. 
Car not fixed. 
Then the rejection. 
It took them weeks to acknowledge the rejection - Sent on the 27th of March. They came back with the 45p / mile on 16th April. 

How are we being punished for their ineptitude in customer service? 

And to stop using a car... well... that's a bit of a LOL for the reality of family life when you dont have the money to go out and buy another car... Or parking... 

Okell

julesw1lko said:

We've only just rejected the car after they've taken a month to not fix the issues, and it being returned with new faults and others unfixed. 

Is it our fault they'd taken this long - given we've chased and chased and chased and chased and given them the car for a month plus a further 5 days of garage visits? 

[Edit: cross posted again]

If you've only just rejected the car then stop using it.

Regarding how long it's taken them, read the link in my previous post about the short term right to reject.  You haven't bothered to give us any dates so we don't know them.  If you look at s22 of the legislation do you think the short term right to reject still applies to you?  It's possible it does, but if the car was due to go in for repairs in decmeber and you've been using it for 5 months I don't see how it can.

If you aren't eligible for the short term right to reject you are left with just rejecting the car (which you have now done) and either returning ti to the dealer or letting them collect it.  You then need to agree a charge for "use".

Okell

If you want to know whether the short term right to reject still exists in your case, you need to apply to your case sections 22(6), (7) and (8) of the legislation I linked to earlier.  You haven't told us dates so we can't do it

I would be very surprised if you have not lost the short term right to reject.

That doesn't mean you can't reject, but it does mean the trader can now charge you for "use".

Regarding the trader's inaction you should have rejected earlier.  But that would have meant you needed to stop using the car from the point of rejection and made it available for the trader to collect

julesw1lko

Car bought on the 18th of October... 
Issues raised literally day 1 - but were told they'd need to get parts in. 
We'd scrapped our previous car, so we had to take this car and said fine, we'll return in the following Fridays to get the tyres, the trim and other bits sorted. 
And needless to say, not all things were resolved.

From Steve Bradin of Carsa on 18th of December

"As per our telephone conversation, I can confirm that I will speak to Ford in Bolton to book you in asap, this may take a couple of weeks depending on the availability of slots."

And they then stopped returning calls, or replying to emails.

Until they eventually took the car in on the 5th of March. which they then failed to fix when we got our car back on the 27th of March - Literally hit the motorway, turned on the radio, and the new fault occurred. 

The contact made on the 27th of March with regard to the fault and car rejection was not acknowledged until 16th of April. 

That enough dates? 

Okell

So you bought the car on the 18th Ocober.

What date did you request it to be repaired?  (Was it 18 October?)

What date did you get the car back from that repair?

What date did you tell them you were rejecting it? 

You say Citizen's Advice would not advise on the 45p, but what advice did they give you?  did they say anything about the short term right to reject?

DullGreyGuy

You dont say when you first contacted the company and if you told them you were rejecting the vehicle at that time?

Motor vehicles are different to any other products and its only if you reject it in the first month that you dont have to pay for use. If you reject it at any time after the first month your refund can be reduced for use until the date its returned. 

If you reject it in the first month but accept them having an attempt to repair it then the reject is put on hold effectively and the clock stopped but it doesnt sound like you rejected it straight away. 

I disagree that 45p/mile is reasonable as whilst that is what is paid under the government scheme for rebating those using their personal vehicle for business use that includes the fuel used. Obviously you already paid the fuel directly. Personally would say the difference between the personal car and company car rates is the reasonable deduction given the delta between the two is the wear on your vehicle and contribution towards servicing etc.

TheSpectator

So how many miles have you actually put on the car?

Also you can't seem to acknowledge that actually rejecting a car means you stop using it. Citing 'family life' is not going to help your argument. 

As I see it you either suck up the 45p 'usage' rate (again how many miles and how much does this cost you) for a quicker resolution or you continue to argue your case which may drag on for months but you do not have use of a car.

Sometimes things aren't 'fair' but require a bit pragmatism.