short term right to reject on a used car - Issues since day 1

julesw1lko

Okell said:

So, for claity, are you saying:

1.  You requested or agreed to a repair on the same day that you took delivery of the vehicle on 18 October 2024?

2.  That because of inaction on the part of the trader that the vehicle never actually went in for those repairs (requested on 18 October 2024) until 05 March 2025?

3.  That you got the car back from those repairs on 27 March 2025 and it still wasn't fixed?

4.  That you rejected the car that same day, 27 March 2025?

Heya Okell,
Yep. 
Pretty much sums it up. 
And that the reply about the rejection came on the 16th of April.
(I asked about the ADR on the 18th April, no reply)

julesw1lko

DullGreyGuy said:

julesw1lko said:

Dullgreyguy - 

"If you reject it in the first month but accept them having an attempt to repair it then the reject is put on hold effectively and the clock stopped but it doesnt sound like you rejected it straight away. "
We didn't reject in the first month, as we believed they were going to be fixing the problems. 
The problems were from day 1. 
We went back to Carsa multiple times for them to fix issues, or attempt to fix them. That's surely what you would expect, if they said they could fix it? 

It's only after they'd had the car for the month of March, at that point, I sent the comms to reject (or exchange) the car - but that 27th of March communication wasn't replied to until the 16th of April when they said they would take the car back for 45p a mile penalty, or exchange for 35p a mile. 
(And again - With repeated chasing of what was going on - On one day I called Carsa 27 times, and each time the phone rang out to answering machine message... never got a call back). 

I think 45p a mile is a mick take. 
But citizens advice had no counter. 

So you rejected the vehicle outside of the first month and therefore deducting usage is their legal right. It's now a debate with them on what the appropriate rate is as the law doesnt define rates or how it should be calculated. It naturally depends on how far you are willing to go, there is no point sending a letter before action saying you'll only accept 20p/mile and you'll sue them if they dont accept and settle within 14 days if you arent willing to actually follow it through and issue proceedings. 



PS. if you put an @ in front of someone's username they'll get notified that you've mentioned them in a thread. 

Cheers - rusty on forums. 
And yeah, indeed, can't afford to sue lol .
And indeed, the crux, as it feels, is that effectively, the fault was there from day 1. 
So - No - I didn't reject it in the first 30 days, as I was trying to give Carsa time to address the issue.
And indeed, citizens advice said, you have to let the dealer a chance to fix it. Multiple times they had chance, and indeed, for March. 

So it kind of feels like they went dark on purpose? 

julesw1lko

TheSpectator said:

julesw1lko said:

TheSpectator said:

julesw1lko said:

TheSpectator - 
"Also you can't seem to acknowledge that actually rejecting a car means you stop using it. Citing 'family life' is not going to help your argument. " So - We pay for the mileage done from the date they acknowledged the rejection on the 16th of April. Sure. 

In the 6 months, we've done about 3500 miles. 
A few hundred of those going back and forth to Carsa. 

The pragmatism is giving them a chance to exchange the car, and I've not utterly destroyed them online. 

As I said it depends on how much time/effort you are prepared to put into this. They seem to be basically put a 'take it or leave it offer' to you and are ignoring any further negotiation attempts.

You have no car currently. So you really want an exchange car from them?

ps hitting the 'quote' button makes it easier to read your posts.

I found the quoting horrible to ready, but for you... 

And no, I'm not ignoring any further negotiation attempts. Far from it. 
I've asked for ADR. No reply. 

Their offer had no negotiation - It was 45p refund, or 35p exchange. 
Full and final. 

There was no negotiation from Carsa. 

I asked for our time, effort, days of annual leave lost to be considered. Our consequential losses. 
There was none. 

I meant they weren't negotiating not that you weren't. As far as I can see they have set out their final position so it's down to you what you decide to do but I'm just highlighting it won't be a quick process.

How was the car paid for?

Got the car "cash" effectively, having taken out a loan from the bank .

pinkshoes

julesw1lko said:

Okell said:

So, for claity, are you saying:

1.  You requested or agreed to a repair on the same day that you took delivery of the vehicle on 18 October 2024?

2.  That because of inaction on the part of the trader that the vehicle never actually went in for those repairs (requested on 18 October 2024) until 05 March 2025?

3.  That you got the car back from those repairs on 27 March 2025 and it still wasn't fixed?

4.  That you rejected the car that same day, 27 March 2025?

Heya Okell,
Yep. 
Pretty much sums it up. 
And that the reply about the rejection came on the 16th of April.
(I asked about the ADR on the 18th April, no reply)

julesw1lko said:
In the 6 months, we've done about 3500 miles. 
A few hundred of those going back and forth to Carsa.

Ok, so although LEGALLY you can reject it as the one opportunity to repair has failed, the issue you have is that you have clearly USED the car, which they are LEGALLY entitled to charge you mileage for.

If the car was not roadworthy, you would have not been driving it, then could have got a full refund. 

How many of the 3500 miles were done taking the car to the dealer and back? If it was perhaps 200 miles, then it's only fair you pay for the miles you have driven. 

If you don't feel the 45p/mile is acceptable, then pay them what you think is fair (with evidence - find examples of what people would normally pay for mileage), then if they want to claim the rest they can take you to court. 

HMRC mileage is 45p/mile.

Perhaps look at the loss of equity in the car due to the additional mileage on the clock and offer to pay that if it's less? e.g. if you bought it for £12,000 and it's now worth £11,000 then pay them £1000. 

The cost of petrol alone per mile is 13p to 23p depending on the car efficiency. Then there's the additional wear and tear on the car for 3500 miles. 

Okell

Well if:

1.   you requested the repair on the day of delivery and

2.  the trader didn't take it in for repair in response to that request until 05 March and

3.  you got the car back on 27 March

then I suppose that one interpretation of s22 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 is that the 30 day window for exercise of the short term right to reject doesn't expire until Friday 25 April.

If (and it's a big "if" I think) that is the case then the trader can't charge you for usage and - if you haven't already exercised the short term right to reject - you need to do so before Saturday(?).

However, that interpretation seems a bit extreme and unlikely to me, so I'm not sure.  @DullGreyGuy and @TheSpectator obviously take a different view and think that after 30 calendar days you lose the short term right to reject.

Be interesting to see what @A_Geordie and @the_lunatic_is_in_my_head think about this

julesw1lko

pinkshoes said:

julesw1lko said:

Okell said:

So, for claity, are you saying:

1.  You requested or agreed to a repair on the same day that you took delivery of the vehicle on 18 October 2024?

2.  That because of inaction on the part of the trader that the vehicle never actually went in for those repairs (requested on 18 October 2024) until 05 March 2025?

3.  That you got the car back from those repairs on 27 March 2025 and it still wasn't fixed?

4.  That you rejected the car that same day, 27 March 2025?

Heya Okell,
Yep. 
Pretty much sums it up. 
And that the reply about the rejection came on the 16th of April.
(I asked about the ADR on the 18th April, no reply)

julesw1lko said:
In the 6 months, we've done about 3500 miles. 
A few hundred of those going back and forth to Carsa.

Ok, so although LEGALLY you can reject it as the one opportunity to repair has failed, the issue you have is that you have clearly USED the car, which they are LEGALLY entitled to charge you mileage for.

If the car was not roadworthy, you would have not been driving it, then could have got a full refund. 

How many of the 3500 miles were done taking the car to the dealer and back? If it was perhaps 200 miles, then it's only fair you pay for the miles you have driven. 

If you don't feel the 45p/mile is acceptable, then pay them what you think is fair (with evidence - find examples of what people would normally pay for mileage), then if they want to claim the rest they can take you to court. 

HMRC mileage is 45p/mile.

Perhaps look at the loss of equity in the car due to the additional mileage on the clock and offer to pay that if it's less? e.g. if you bought it for £12,000 and it's now worth £11,000 then pay them £1000. 

The cost of petrol alone per mile is 13p to 23p depending on the car efficiency. Then there's the additional wear and tear on the car for 3500 miles. 

First point - Carsa has had 7 opportunities to repair the faults with the car.
Just one was when they had the car for a month. 

If Carsa hadn't taken 6 months to not fix things, we wouldn't have clocked up 3000 odd miles. 

As to finding examples of mileage charges... You can find lease hire / PCP or whatever - but nothing about what a dealer paid up - So far, at least.

We've asked for an ADR - No reply yet - as they said 45p was final offer - no negotiation. Only 35p for an exchange. 

julesw1lko

Okell said:

Well if:

1.   you requested the repair on the day of delivery and

2.  the trader didn't take it in for repair in response to that request until 05 March and

3.  you got the car back on 27 March

then I suppose that one interpretation of s22 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 is that the 30 day window for exercise of the short term right to reject doesn't expire until Friday 25 April.

If (and it's a big "if" I think) that is the case then the trader can't charge you for usage and - if you haven't already exercised the short term right to reject - you need to do so before Saturday(?).

However, that interpretation seems a bit extreme and unlikely to me, so I'm not sure.  @DullGreyGuy and @TheSpectator obviously take a different view and think that after 30 calendar days you lose the short term right to reject.

Be interesting to see what @A_Geordie and @the_lunatic_is_in_my_head think about this

Cheers - And yeah - I know it's something - but we've never had a day with the car with no faults - all the things I read talk about faults developing. - and that's where the reading about the "pause" comes in. 
As the issue was raised, and nothing happened. 
But whether the 30 days is that day is something - Given they took two weeks or so to acknowledge ... again - chased almost daily from the 27th because I was so angry. 
And still not had a reply to my ADR request. 

DullGreyGuy

julesw1lko said:

pinkshoes said:

julesw1lko said:

Okell said:

So, for claity, are you saying:

1.  You requested or agreed to a repair on the same day that you took delivery of the vehicle on 18 October 2024?

2.  That because of inaction on the part of the trader that the vehicle never actually went in for those repairs (requested on 18 October 2024) until 05 March 2025?

3.  That you got the car back from those repairs on 27 March 2025 and it still wasn't fixed?

4.  That you rejected the car that same day, 27 March 2025?

Heya Okell,
Yep. 
Pretty much sums it up. 
And that the reply about the rejection came on the 16th of April.
(I asked about the ADR on the 18th April, no reply)

julesw1lko said:
In the 6 months, we've done about 3500 miles. 
A few hundred of those going back and forth to Carsa.

Ok, so although LEGALLY you can reject it as the one opportunity to repair has failed, the issue you have is that you have clearly USED the car, which they are LEGALLY entitled to charge you mileage for.

If the car was not roadworthy, you would have not been driving it, then could have got a full refund. 

How many of the 3500 miles were done taking the car to the dealer and back? If it was perhaps 200 miles, then it's only fair you pay for the miles you have driven. 

If you don't feel the 45p/mile is acceptable, then pay them what you think is fair (with evidence - find examples of what people would normally pay for mileage), then if they want to claim the rest they can take you to court. 

HMRC mileage is 45p/mile.

Perhaps look at the loss of equity in the car due to the additional mileage on the clock and offer to pay that if it's less? e.g. if you bought it for £12,000 and it's now worth £11,000 then pay them £1000. 

The cost of petrol alone per mile is 13p to 23p depending on the car efficiency. Then there's the additional wear and tear on the car for 3500 miles. 

First point - Carsa has had 7 opportunities to repair the faults with the car.
Just one was when they had the car for a month. 

If Carsa hadn't taken 6 months to not fix things, we wouldn't have clocked up 3000 odd miles. 

As to finding examples of mileage charges... You can find lease hire / PCP or whatever - but nothing about what a dealer paid up - So far, at least.

We've asked for an ADR - No reply yet - as they said 45p was final offer - no negotiation. Only 35p for an exchange. 

It would be helpful to have a clear timeline starting from the day the car was first given to you to today but excluding any "chasers" or "I called 27 times in a day" that add noise and dont impact your statutory rights. In particular with each initial call to them (either after delivery or a repair attempt) what you were asking them in terms of repair or reject. 

Your text so far makes it unclear if the "7 opportunities" if those have been failed repair attempts, you've turned up and they've turned you away or other things. 

born_again

TBH. 4year old car, not sure tyre & trim failing would be a valid reason to reject.
Tyre should have been picked up on collection. Which you would refuse to drive away with given a egg on the sidewall. That puts it in the unsafe to drive range. Should have been sorted there & then.

If you drove away, then they can argue that it was caused by you..

Front bumper you only picked up later. How much later though.

julesw1lko

DullGreyGuy said:

julesw1lko said:

pinkshoes said:

julesw1lko said:

Okell said:

So, for claity, are you saying:

1.  You requested or agreed to a repair on the same day that you took delivery of the vehicle on 18 October 2024?

2.  That because of inaction on the part of the trader that the vehicle never actually went in for those repairs (requested on 18 October 2024) until 05 March 2025?

3.  That you got the car back from those repairs on 27 March 2025 and it still wasn't fixed?

4.  That you rejected the car that same day, 27 March 2025?

Heya Okell,
Yep. 
Pretty much sums it up. 
And that the reply about the rejection came on the 16th of April.
(I asked about the ADR on the 18th April, no reply)

julesw1lko said:
In the 6 months, we've done about 3500 miles. 
A few hundred of those going back and forth to Carsa.

Ok, so although LEGALLY you can reject it as the one opportunity to repair has failed, the issue you have is that you have clearly USED the car, which they are LEGALLY entitled to charge you mileage for.

If the car was not roadworthy, you would have not been driving it, then could have got a full refund. 

How many of the 3500 miles were done taking the car to the dealer and back? If it was perhaps 200 miles, then it's only fair you pay for the miles you have driven. 

If you don't feel the 45p/mile is acceptable, then pay them what you think is fair (with evidence - find examples of what people would normally pay for mileage), then if they want to claim the rest they can take you to court. 

HMRC mileage is 45p/mile.

Perhaps look at the loss of equity in the car due to the additional mileage on the clock and offer to pay that if it's less? e.g. if you bought it for £12,000 and it's now worth £11,000 then pay them £1000. 

The cost of petrol alone per mile is 13p to 23p depending on the car efficiency. Then there's the additional wear and tear on the car for 3500 miles. 

First point - Carsa has had 7 opportunities to repair the faults with the car.
Just one was when they had the car for a month. 

If Carsa hadn't taken 6 months to not fix things, we wouldn't have clocked up 3000 odd miles. 

As to finding examples of mileage charges... You can find lease hire / PCP or whatever - but nothing about what a dealer paid up - So far, at least.

We've asked for an ADR - No reply yet - as they said 45p was final offer - no negotiation. Only 35p for an exchange. 

It would be helpful to have a clear timeline starting from the day the car was first given to you to today but excluding any "chasers" or "I called 27 times in a day" that add noise and dont impact your statutory rights. In particular with each initial call to them (either after delivery or a repair attempt) what you were asking them in terms of repair or reject. 

Your text so far makes it unclear if the "7 opportunities" if those have been failed repair attempts, you've turned up and they've turned you away or other things. 

7 events were - 

Tyre replacement. 
Windscreen trim attempt 1 (when they agreed a date for the trim, we turned up, and the trim wasnt there) Windscreen trim attempt 2 (when they did fit the trim that was supposed to be there on the first one)
Windscreen trim attempt 3 (because it fell off after it not being fitted right on attempt 2).
Then electrical faults were looked at along with the windscreen trim times, and also when they were looked at independently, and then another time they came to the house. 

I can get the dates off my wife as she was the one who wasted her 5 days holiday. 

Always at arranged times, rather than just random appearances. 
I turned up there randomly in my own car during my working day because I couldn't get an answer from email and phone to confirm appointments. 

and the 7th was when they had the car for March. 
In which they created a new electrical fault and failed to address the headlining falling out (as they said they were going to get a trim / headling person in - but they say, let them down... for a month... and there must only be one car trim fitter in Bolton!)

Every time it was a repair to address the day 1 faults. 

And indeed, the faults like the front bumper being glued (I foolishly was just like "!!!!!!" and ordered the bits off ebay, but did take photos of the glued clips).
But indeed, all make a mockery of Carsa's pre delivery checks.

https://www.carsa.co.uk/terms-and-conditions-for-the-supply-and-purchase-of-vehicles?srsltid=AfmBOoonh_TEojQ_-oe_CzEhsLA3e5HV2R77qyMVipaZlSwokvPia5iw

YOUR VEHICLE

3.1 Prior to delivery or collection, the Vehicle will have undergone a 204-point mechanical and specification inspection as part of our preparation of the Vehicle for sale. The Vehicle will also have an MOT.