URGENT HELP SON DISCIPLINARY MEETING

Grumpy_chap

MissScott1501 said:

I am tempted to help him write up his side of events, the questions that need asked and the areas that are updated for him to give to the people in the meeting.    Like a prepared written statement of his side.  

I think that would be a very constructive and positive way to support him.

Savvy Sue has given some good pointers to how to possibly structure things.  As have others.

If you work with your son tomorrow and help him prepare his notes, you can share the notes (or the essence) of the points he has and contributors to the thread can read through and comment anything from the thread that has been missed out, or anything that reads oddly.

You will likely receive differing comments and opinions on what is written but, taken together, that should all help.

General_Grant

MissScott1501 said:

My husband and I went through what happened in detail with my son, But with little information about the actual complaint and the actual location of it.  How can we fully prepare,  this is not the first time he has drove a high performance company car, he does this weekly.

Xxxxx  who he works for is not a small garage by any means.

We are not using the disability card for discrimination in any means.   He won't handle being in there on his own without panicking and being over anxious.

As previously stated we are unable to get a union rep in time and there is no collegaue who can support him.  We are the only family he has to help.

I actually thought posting on here for advice and to see if anyone else had similar experience would help.  But the opposite seems to have happened.   I am more worried and anxious now that my son will have to attend this meeting on his own and end up dismissed for not being able to speak up for himself and state his case clearly and accurately due to anxiety and panic.      Not what I expected at all. 

I suggest you go back and edit out the name of the employing organisation.

Nothanks

Few thoughts: 

1. Enough detail here to identify the employer; if they find out their confidential case is being discussed publicly it will add fuel to the fire. I’d suggest editing out details of the road etc

2. ACAS weren’t wrong as such, but it’s not quite as clear cut. If someone has a medical condition that detriments their daily activities and has lasted or is likely to last more than a year then they will likely be covered by the equalities act. Likely, not definitely. And only a judge decides that, unless it’s one of a few very serious illnesses that are automatically covered. 

IF this applies to an employee then the employer is legally obliged to make reasonable adjustments as long as they know or should have known about the disability. Key word being “reasonable”.  Once again what may be reasonable to me might not be to you. 

IF the employer deems it reasonable as an adjustment to have someone other than a colleague or TU rep accompany they may choose to allow it. Many companies don’t. But the disability only impacts the adjustment for the meeting itself, it bears no relevance at all to the actual complaint.  

FWIW I’d recommend against going in with him. I’ve never seen a parent or partner attend a formal work meeting and not make it worse. Unless one of you is a TU Rep or HR bod then stay out is my advice. In this situation your lad is looking to de-escalate the situation and appear professional - taking in mum or dad will almost never do either of those things. 

3. He should definitely take notes in with him if he is neurodiverse; bullet points or a written statement. Including discrepancies from the original meeting notes. 

4. Honesty honesty honesty. “Yes boss, I effed up” is always better than denial. If your lad is adamant he did nothing wrong then he has to allow for the fact someone else thinks he did. “I am always really careful driving those cars, and I am certain I was in the speed limit and driving appropriate to conditions but if someone has complained then I may be wrong. Either way I’ve definitely learned to be extra cautious so even if I’m driving safely I’m still a good ambassador for the firm..blah blah horseradish.”

More in sorrow than in anger as they say. 

5. Ask a work colleague to go with him, even if it’s just to take notes or make sure he’s covered all the points on his list. Most people are nosey and will jump at the chance if asked. 

6. In the meeting, tell him to be super professional, keep as calm as possible, take breaks if he feels overwhelmed. Take in a bottle of water. If his blood sugar dips with the adrenaline a sports drink like lucozade can help. 

Ultimately it doesn’t matter what happened, a customer has complained and the business will decide whether the customer or the employee is more plausible. They’ll then decide if the trust and confidence is still there or not. 

He’s a teenager driving a flash car on an A-road. If he didn’t floor it to zip away or go hard into a turn he’s got better impulse control than 99% of kids his age and a fair portion of adults. It’s plausible someone saw a kid driving a BMW and with the negative stereotypes of BM drivers and young drivers saw what they expected to see even if it wasn’t there. The brain is a funny old thing. 

Sorry for the essay, hope it goes ok for him. 

Undervalued

MissScott1501 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

MissScott1501 said:

As previously stated we are unable to get a union rep in time and there is no collegaue who can support him.  We are the only family he has to help.

There is no reason that the employer would need to allow you or your husband to attend.  The rules are set out in law:
colleague or union rep

anyone else is by agreement

Unless a "reasonable adjustment" under disability.

https://www.acas.org.uk/disciplinary-procedure-step-by-step/step-4-the-disciplinary-hearing

FWIW, I think the idea of playing the disabled "reasonable adjustment" card (for an undiagnosed and previously undeclared condition) or having your son's parents (that's a complex loop) attend would backfire.

When i spoke to acas about this initially this is what they recommended we do.  Even though his conditions have not been officially diagnosed by a doctor. 

ACAS is not a substitute for proper legal advice.

At the first level of ACAS you are speaking to a call centre staffed by people with limited training largely reading from a script. This is not a straightforward question with a simple yes / no answer. Yes, allowing somebody other than another employee or a trades union rep to accompany at a disciplinary might be a "reasonable adjustment" for a disability. However, unless the disability is so obvious a non medical person must have been aware (e.g a missing limb etc!) then the employer would need to be made formally aware of this backed up by a qualified medical opinion. Nothing in any of your posts suggests this is the case.

Yes your son can ask and the employer might agree. Whether that would be a good thing is debatable. A family member going in playing the barrack room lawyer could easily be counter productive.

There are two first hand accounts of what happened. The complainant's and your son's. Most likely the real truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Unless there is a clear hidden agenda behind the complaint then the employer is quite entitled to favour the version coming from the complainant. This is not a court of law where guilt must be beyond a reasonable doubt. An employer simply needs a "reasonable belief" that the misconduct took place.

In any case, with less than two years service this is largely moot as he is unlikely to have any redress.

I would strongly suggest he tells the absolute truth and apologies profusely for any transgression, however minor.

One final thought...

When somebody in the motor trade drives a customer's car it is surely reasonable to expect that they do so in a cautious and professional manner. That is not the same thing as borderline within the speed limit etc! As part of any defence I would suggest he makes clear to his employer that he fully understands this responsibility and goes to great lengths to do exactly that.

Jude57

Can I just add that, in most cases, even when a work colleague or accredited Union representative is allowed to accompany someone during a disciplinary meeting, they are not usually allowed to speak on behalf of the individual. They can certainly ask for clarification of points raised and take notes but they are not there to present evidence or, unless specifically confirmed by the employer, to act as an advocate for the employee. The employer isn't looking for evidence to the standard that a Court would need, i.e. beyond reasonable doubt that the alleged misconduct took place. All an employer needs to do, legally, is to carry out a reasonable (layman's) investigation and a reasonable (layman's) process before dismissing someone. All they need, legally, is a reasonable belief that the alleged misconduct took place.

Nothanks

Not aiming for pedantry, but that isn’t correct. A companion can speak to you during the case, can present points to support the case and can sum up your position. They can’t answer questions directly on your behalf but they can nudge you towards an answer and present their opinions. 

Marcon

MissScott1501 said:

He was driving an m4 BMW in the wet.  The noise of the car and the way it looks could to be classed as aggressive.

...and with a teenager at the wheel of a performance car with trade plates, that's probably exactly what it did look like to a safety-conscience and responsible member of the public.

Of course your son is anxious about all this and as a parent you are too (goes with the territory!), but this unbelievably lengthy thread is turning into something of a three-ringed circus. Why does he need 'notes' of his side of the story, which is presumably uncomplicated? Having those could actually be a distraction and will also limit the amount of eye contact he makes with the people he's speaking to - and eye contact, as we all know, is crucial to help establish honesty and trust.

At 19, he's a very inexperienced driver. Perhaps he could express regret that his driving might have led a member to the public to misjudge his actions, and then go on to say that he is planning to undertake an advanced driving course in the very near future. Make sure he's actually done some online research to find out when, where and how much, not least in the hope the employer might offer to cough up.

Finally, bear in mind that the cost of the employer's motor insurance will be astronomical, given (from the sound of it) that it covers teenage boys at the wheel of pretty much any car. The underwriters are likely to have some detailed questions each time renewal comes around, and that would probably include information about how the employer would handle various scenarios - and 'complaint from a third party about the driving standards of one of your employees' could well be on that list. If that's the case, it would be madness for them NOT to have a disciplinary hearing.

Hoenir

MissScott1501 said:

He was driving an m4 BMW in the wet.  

Why is in the wet of relevance ?  

Marcon

Hoenir said:

MissScott1501 said:

He was driving an m4 BMW in the wet.  

Why is in the wet of relevance ?  

Several reasons: wet roads make traffic sound louder; and wet roads are normally more dangerous than clean, dry roads (eg longer stopping distances, possibility of skidding/aqua planing) - and of course wet roads mean wheels can churn up spray.

EnPointe

MissScott1501 said:

He is a car valetor in the motor trade and been there less than 1 year


A manager had a 1 on 1 meeting with him with no representative present to find facts but has wrote information incorrectly.

This is an official disciplinary meeting.  Where he can take someone.    He has anxiety and has panic attacks.  He was very panicked and anxious at this first meeting.

Fact Finds generally  have no RIGHT  to be accompanied,  some organisations, often those with a  Union or Union(s) present in the work place  do allow  reps to attend fact finds  , but  they do not  undertake the functions of Rep in dsciplinary, just  act as a moderating influence and someone  to be able to  ask for adjournments  and a note take for the person whose statement is being taken 

That said, the  'gold standard'  of  a fact  find  is  something akin to a Contemporaneous Notes Interview , where the individual being asked questions has the opportunity to read, review, dispute and sign off the statement