Meter readings

QuantumCactus42

FrugaiMacDugal said:

EssexHebridean said:

So as the OP is too new to the forums to allow posting of photos into threads they have very sensibly DM’d me a photo of the immersion heater timer - 

As you turn the dial round does the light go off and on, if so at what times?

Try putting the switch to 'off' rather than 'timed' for a day, see if that makes a difference, take meter readings same time each day.

So according to the videos, the light is supposed to come on when the dial is at 3am all the way to 8am. Mine doesnt do that. It stays on constantly. When I flick the switch, the light remains off regardles of where i turn the dial to.

Swipe

Yep, sounds like it's definitely broken. It should flick on and off as you turn the dial a full rotation. Time for a new one which is much more controllable. Swapping it out (with the mains electric switched off at the consumer unit) is an easy DIY job as long as you take pictures of the wiring beforehand. Often you can get away with reusing the old back box (Your Quartz model is a direct swap) if you are not confident in re-wiring the new one up.

https://www.heatingcontrolsonline.co.uk/secure-horstmann-e7plus-immersion-heater-timer.html

Have a shop around to see if you can beat that price.

Installation info: https://www.securemeters.com/uk/product/electric-water-heating-controls/e7/

Scot_39

QuantumCactus42 said:

Scot_39 said:

QuantumCactus42 said:

Scot_39 said:

QuantumCactus42 said:

EssexHebridean said:

So as the OP is too new to the forums to allow posting of photos into threads they have very sensibly DM’d me a photo of the immersion heater timer - 

@QuantumCactus42 the first question here for me is what time was that picture taken? If it was taken directly before you DM’d it to me last night, then there is a good chance that the timing is out on it which could be causing the water to heat on peak rates - not ideal. Do you know exactly when the off peak rate begins and ends? 

Second question I guess is do you understand exactly how this timer works? If not, ask and we can explain it! 

This picture was taken at 9:05am 2 days ago. I literally have 0 idea what any of those dials mean. Ive tried to make sense of it but cant. Im also not too sure when the off peak begins and ends. Ive read online that its potential between midnight and 8am but i could be wrong. Im very new and clueless to all of these things so feel free to assume that I literally do not know anything about anything as youd probably be correct!

In which case surely the winter time line should have aligned with the current winter GMT time - 9 am - not 19 hrs / 7pm - or 8pm DST - the reason for both lines - you set against one with your other clock / watch etc - depending on season.

And why then is the off peak light on at 9am (if an input detection) or switched on when the timer thinks its 7pm GMT if an output ?

 

Does it ever go off  ?

You'll be using more heat constantly topping up if your immersion is on a long time - but only against tank loses - typically 1-2 kWh a day for a decent factory lagged tank - it doesn't explain 4000kWh pa / 10 kWh per day.

But could be far worse in an old lose "quilt" type tank jacket - one that is badly fitted (we had 2 on my parents in the end)

Oh and the actual timer should be set to select at a subset of times looking at that manual.  So you might want to turn it slowly and look at when it switches / the boost light comes on / off.   The manual suggests it cannot be set outside the black dial timings 1130 to 9am - but it's clearly on in daytime.

I'd get it replaced - given it's age - if in doubt.

Which part would need replacing? The box thing or the whole water tank/heating element?

Just the box thing initially my guess.

The maxistore timer switch.  To make sure your getting the best out of your off peak heating rates reliably.

If the tgermostat on the element was bad - you'd probably notice scalding hot water in most smaller to medium tanks after 3-4 hrs heating let alone longer.

The actual switching times are set behind the display -  by screw adjustable switch arms on a time (mechanical rotating wheel arc slot ?) restricted basis.

Those could I suppose have loosened / slipped - but the manual linked above says they cannot be set outside the 1130 to 9am zone - aligning with black section of the time dial on the front.  (You were just by chance on tge limit of that end point in the photo.  But the device itself thought it was 7pm gmt)

And limitted to an overall min 4 hrs on period to max 7 hrs on period a day difference between on and off arms.

But it looks on when your showing approaching 7pm gmt 8pm dst time in your photo at back of 9am the off peak lamp is on. 

So do you know exactly when your immersion is being switched on and off ?

Have you checked the neon indicator at other times of tge day / night.  Simpler yet

If you rotate the dial slowly (clockwise I believe from manual to adjust/set time)  you might actually hear it - or see it via neon - switching as set - record the times shown at the gmt winter line at top of timer for both on and off.

You might be lucky and it's somehow a new false fixed time offset and adjust to suit - but if shifted once - who says it won't again.

 I assume the clock motor is operating with power.  But given the likely age I wouldn't guarantee the battery back up for power outages etc is working and they are susciptible to drift anyways.  So might be an idea to check periodically if in an area prone to outages if you do try the false offset fix.

I watched some youtube videos as I cant really follow written instructions well as fiddled around witht the dial thing. I think it is infact broken. From the videos ive watched, the dial is supposed to be a timer which corresponds with the current time. The default setting is supposed to turn on at 3am and off at 8am. However, with ours, the dial does not turn on its own and the off peak light is constantly on. With the functional device in the youtube video, the light comes on when its heating (during the off peak) and goes back off when not heating (after 8am). This leads me to the conclusion that our one is constantly heating as our light is constantly on. Does this make sense or have I gone wrong in my assumptions? If this is the case, is that whats contributing the the 4000kwh per year of usage for such a small flat which aside from this issue, does not use a lot of electricity?

It's a simple mechanical timer - (like a timer switch your might use in a 13a socket for sayva lamp)  driven by a small motor - so if the dial isn't rotating off of the mains power by itself it isn't working.

But in the position its stopped - in the 9am photo at just before 7pm gmt on its dial it shouldnt then have been on.  Begging the question why and given cracked case ....

Did the neon indicator never go off as you rotated dial through 24 hours manually ?  

Get it replaced - then see if new one reduces your use.

Modern ones are digital but I found a similar looking horseman quartz model on one site on a quick google miggt be idenyptical wiring etc.  Other makes are available at local chains.

Many people find 1 hr enough - even if tank feed used for a couple of showers daily 2 hrs might do many.

Even just 1kWh saving per day would be a near 10% cut in your c4000 usage.

A normal tank will cool between charges reducing tge losses from the tank itself and pipes every time you run more hot water.  Your immersion heater if as seems indicated by neon lamp as being permantly on, topping up the heat to maximise both tank and those pipe losses.

EssexHebridean

even if the dial itself was no longer turning under its own steam, it still should trigger on and off at the relevant times when manually turned - so this suggests that there is some sort of issue here more than just the timer, to me? Either way OP it should be a relatively cheap job to have completed by an electrician - and in light of the fact that there is a possibility that there *may* be something else going on with the feed to it, I would be inclined to suggest that this might not be best as a DIY job. 

I can't recall whether you have said - is your shower an electric one, or fed from the tank? 

FrugaiMacDugal

Try leaving switch off for a day, take a reading when you switch it off and again next day at same time to see what usage is.

If you have a well insulated tank water should remain warm enough.

Swipe

EssexHebridean said:

even if the dial itself was no longer turning under its own steam, it still should trigger on and off at the relevant times when manually turned - so this suggests that there is some sort of issue here more than just the timer, to me? 

No, it's just the timer that is broken, specifically the internal mechanism that turns the power circuit on and off. Replacing the timer unit will fix the problem. It's a simple DIY job, see the video below. It's just a case of removing the old timer face, unplugging and re-plugging the 5 connectors and screwing the new timer front unit on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEUDoR0qIws

QuantumCactus42

FrugaiMacDugal said:

Try leaving switch off for a day, take a reading when you switch it off and again next day at same time to see what usage is.

If you have a well insulated tank water should remain warm enough.

Im trying this out now. Its currently off. I am taking pictures of the meter every 2 hours to see what the usage is like. Right now its around 0.2kwh every 2 hours. Does this sound right?

Ildhund

Swipe said:
... the internal mechanism that turns the power circuit on and off. 

I've seen threads on electricians' forums about these time switches, with some very vocal old hands refusing to allow a heavy-duty contactor to live in a little plastic box like that. Their preferred solution was to capture the on/off trigger and use it to power an external contactor fit for purpose. Much like using the 2A load control switch in many 5-wire smart meters, rather than trusting to the 100A switch alongside it.

Gerry1

QuantumCactus42 said:

FrugaiMacDugal said:

Try leaving switch off for a day, take a reading when you switch it off and again next day at same time to see what usage is.

If you have a well insulated tank water should remain warm enough.

Im trying this out now. Its currently off. I am taking pictures of the meter every 2 hours to see what the usage is like. Right now its around 0.2kwh every 2 hours. Does this sound right?

That corresponds to a typical 100W background use of standby items so absolutely nothing to worry about.  It's surprising how many things are connected 24/7 e.g. doorbell, PIR floodlight, porch light, TVs, clock radio, aerial amplifier, burglar alarm, microwave, washing machine, tumble dryer, fridge. freezer, cooker...

victor2

@QuantumCactus42, I don't think I've seen you confirm this yet, but are you actually on an E7 tariff? You could be on a single rate tariff, but the "day" and "night" usage figures are billed at the same rate.

If you are on a single rate, it will make no difference having the readings transposed. Doesn't mean you don't have to sort out the switches, but does mean you don't have to worry about getting an unpleasant bill.