Meter readings

QuantumCactus42

Scot_39 said:

Even a fairly modern HW immersion tank will lose 1-2 kWh/day - thats static - not pipe losses when in use.

I'd be amazed if any home with electric hot water / shower etc would be using anywhere near 500 kWh a year.  So don't see it being a scaling error.

QuantumCactus42 said:
...
I took a picture of the meter last night at 21:30 which read 66076 (2 red number) and 41514 (0 red number). I took another picture of the meter today at 21:30 which read 66082 (3 red number) and 41514 (6 red number)

Since then, its only been me and mum at home. Usage that I can think of (excluding water tank heater) is as follows:
- oven on for 2 hours  - say 1.5 - 2.5 kWh  (higher end if if 2x 1 hr for separate meals, as reheating the oven mass a big part of the energy required, not 1x2 hr)
- 2 showers - say 2-3 kWh (did I miss answer - but if tank fed that comes from yesterdays use of tank heater not todays metered energy use)
- laptop charged around 3-4 times per day (battery very old)  (maybe 0.2-0.4kWh - my laptop adaptor 65W - older ones more)
- 2 light bulbs on for around 1 hour total (- in winter really ? if Led - 0.02 kWh)
- PC use for 1 hour at night (if desktop at 100W, 0.1kWh if 350W like when I heavily load my i7 + graphics - 0.35kWh - if laptop - maybe 0.05kWh)
- 2 phones charged (at modern but not latest 15W for 2 hrs each - 0.06kWh)
- Hair dryer for around 10 mins (many c2-2.4kW at top end - if 2.2kW - 0.35kWh)

Does that sound roughly correct? Or do you think the water heater thing is still on?

So that will be 6.1 kWh day (66082.3-66076.2) and 0.6kWh night - give or take +/-0.1 kWh.

The 0.6 over 7 hrs or so - easily believable given your c100W background use - a lot of that likely to be Fridge and Freezer with the immersion heater off.

6.7 kWh

As well as above list - you said had Fridge / Freezer - plus anyone drink tea / coffee a few times in morning / night?

Boil a kettle for tea / coffee for 3 mins - 3kW*3/60 = 0.05 kWh

Fridge maybe 0.25-0.4 kWh per day (more if older models)

Freezer maybe 0.5 kWh (undercounter / small) - 0.7 kWh modern tall - 1kWh + potentially if older) - per day.

Without showers I get to 4 kWh easily for efficient appliances - more for older - and with 2 showers - that 6.7 kWh easily.

Did I miss the answer to how your shower is het - electric or tank fed ?

[If electric 2 showers easily adds 2-3kWh - but if tank fed - that HW energy was added by electricity heater yesterday - and not replenished today unless heater element is on at least part time.]

I am surprised it's that high without any HW at all - but with 2 electric showers - easy - or reheating the water in the tank - easy. Without seondary loads - some weekend laundry days I do 2-3 washes - 2-3kWh - and run a dehumidifier to keep home dry in winter (0.5kWh for 2 days)

Some users reported they only heat their tank every 2nd or even every 3rd day - one iirc was despite 2-3 quick showers - fed from HW tank - per day - they don't get really cold at the top - that quickly.  Fixing the timer will only reduce the losses a bit - it wont stop your costs of heating the tank back up when hot replaced by cold.

So we do have an electric shower and we also have a big box looking thing of water which is above a big insulated cylinder. Not really sure what they are tbh.

Im not really a hot drinks person, only really use the kettle to boil water for pasta. Mum might have a coffee in the morning but not too sure as i either leave before she wakes or she leaves before i do. Now that i think about it, the one thing i do think we do a lot is washing clothes. Could range from like 4-5 washes per week. Mums really fussy about what combinations of clothes are being washed (towels cant be washed with clothes, kitchen cloths washed seperately from everything else, dark colours not with whites etc). Could this be why were using so much? Im not really sure what a normal amount of washes per week is. I know my partner does 1-2 washes per week so 4-5 seems a bit excessive. We do have a very recent eco friendly washing machine tho.

Scot_39

Many flats might have a smaller pressure relief / expansion tank above the main hot water cylinder - it's normally just a passive thing to take care of the small changes that happen when you heat water from c10C to c60C.

That might be what you see - but not sure - given you describe it as a box.

With 2 electric showers in the day you measured 6.7 kW is perfectly within normal expected range for summer - or winter excluding heating for that matter.  My numbers unless out all day or away - range around 5-8kWh - but will break that if wash the car or do a couple of loads of washing - especially towels and bedding.  And I'd add 1.5kWh to that for a second or subsequent shower.

A washing machine load will likely add around 0.5-1kWh depending on cycle and spin - unless do a cold wash - a lot of the difference in chosen temperature - heating the water and the clothes for higher temp / heavier washes will use more (e.g. towels).  2 small loads wont typically use anywhere near twice as much as 1 large load will  and of your list - those things are potentially washed at different temperatures anyway.

I talked in passing above of tpyical modern tanks having 1-2 kWh of losses - and pipe losses as any hot water run into the pipes as use hot taps - but it's important to realise some of that is in fact heating the flat a little - or could be.

For instance - my parents tank used to be in the kitchen - we never ever had to worry about freezing pipes / frost damage as a result - despite a single panel wood back door.  When old boiler was replaced by a combi - we put in a couple of small frost tubes to replace the heat leaking from tank to protect pipes on coldest nights.

 

My tank is in a small of hall airing cupboard - it keeps my towels and bedding damp free and helps finish off the drying when hang shirts etc in there - and the airing cupbouard is often notably hotter than I heat my hallways in winter - and so in winter if open the door - gives the upstairs hall a bit of a temp boost too.

If your heater was on cycling on its thermostat 24/7 because of the faulty timer - you would have been running at higher losses than a normal home - but your still going to have some.  As well as the actual hot water you will use.  But it is perfectly possibly you would only have to heat tank for say 1-2hrs every 2nd or third day if well insulated modern tank. 

You could leave it off - and rely on kettles etc for non shower washing and dishes etc - as some others have reported - but for me the convenience of hot on demand - is worth it.  Even if it might be costing 30p a day or more even at a decent night rate.

Notional usage targets and TDCVs are just that - you need to find your own balance.  Indications - not targets for you to aim for - if it doesn't suit your needs or affordability.

You gave us the single total from your Dec bills - but the daily numbers showed both registers in use - so you do now from that appear to have dual rate meter (if not dual rate tariff) - do you have the breakdown of differences for both day and night ?

And any idea how long the hot water Horstmann timer has been faulty ?

The faulty immersion switch would mean your not probably making the best of the night register and any split rate (if you have one).

But the elctrical shower - if not showering at off peak rate times - makes e7 more questionable as well.

Did you check the rates on your bills against those 2 readings.

EssexHebridean

Reverting back to the question about readings being the wrong - or right - way round, this is a problem with some supplier's apps - we encountered it a couple of times where we weren't able to use a particular app because it would have forced us to input things the wrong way round. You have an easy way of checking that now though as you are now familiar with the arrow that indicates which register is active - yes?  Go to the app and see which register it shows as day (it should give you a "last reading" figure against that)  and then compare that with the "day" register on the meter - do the readings (roughly) match? (Remembering that there will have been some movement since the last reading was input). 

QuantumCactus42

EssexHebridean said:

Reverting back to the question about readings being the wrong - or right - way round, this is a problem with some supplier's apps - we encountered it a couple of times where we weren't able to use a particular app because it would have forced us to input things the wrong way round. You have an easy way of checking that now though as you are now familiar with the arrow that indicates which register is active - yes?  Go to the app and see which register it shows as day (it should give you a "last reading" figure against that)  and then compare that with the "day" register on the meter - do the readings (roughly) match? (Remembering that there will have been some movement since the last reading was input). 

Yeah so the readings are completely the wrong way around. The app states very clearly which one is day and night, same with the meter. When i asked my parents about this, they said that when they switched to the app, they just followed what was already on there (i.e., they were able to see what values had been inputted in which way before and just copied that).

QuantumCactus42

Scot_39 said:

Many flats might have a smaller pressure relief / expansion tank above the main hot water cylinder - it's normally just a passive thing to take care of the small changes that happen when you heat water from c10C to c60C.

That might be what you see - but not sure - given you describe it as a box.

With 2 electric showers in the day you measured 6.7 kW is perfectly within normal expected range for summer - or winter excluding heating for that matter.  My numbers unless out all day or away - range around 5-8kWh - but will break that if wash the car or do a couple of loads of washing - especially towels and bedding.  And I'd add 1.5kWh to that for a second or subsequent shower.

A washing machine load will likely add around 0.5-1kWh depending on cycle and spin - unless do a cold wash - a lot of the difference in chosen temperature - heating the water and the clothes for higher temp / heavier washes will use more (e.g. towels).  2 small loads wont typically use anywhere near twice as much as 1 large load will  and of your list - those things are potentially washed at different temperatures anyway.

I talked in passing above of tpyical modern tanks having 1-2 kWh of losses - and pipe losses as any hot water run into the pipes as use hot taps - but it's important to realise some of that is in fact heating the flat a little - or could be.

For instance - my parents tank used to be in the kitchen - we never ever had to worry about freezing pipes / frost damage as a result - despite a single panel wood back door.  When old boiler was replaced by a combi - we put in a couple of small frost tubes to replace the heat leaking from tank to protect pipes on coldest nights.

 

My tank is in a small of hall airing cupboard - it keeps my towels and bedding damp free and helps finish off the drying when hang shirts etc in there - and the airing cupbouard is often notably hotter than I heat my hallways in winter - and so in winter if open the door - gives the upstairs hall a bit of a temp boost too.

If your heater was on cycling on its thermostat 24/7 because of the faulty timer - you would have been running at higher losses than a normal home - but your still going to have some.  As well as the actual hot water you will use.  But it is perfectly possibly you would only have to heat tank for say 1-2hrs every 2nd or third day if well insulated modern tank. 

You could leave it off - and rely on kettles etc for non shower washing and dishes etc - as some others have reported - but for me the convenience of hot on demand - is worth it.  Even if it might be costing 30p a day or more even at a decent night rate.

Notional usage targets and TDCVs are just that - you need to find your own balance.  Indications - not targets for you to aim for - if it doesn't suit your needs or affordability.

You gave us the single total from your Dec bills - but the daily numbers showed both registers in use - so you do now from that appear to have dual rate meter (if not dual rate tariff) - do you have the breakdown of differences for both day and night ?

And any idea how long the hot water Horstmann timer has been faulty ?

The faulty immersion switch would mean your not probably making the best of the night register and any split rate (if you have one).

But the elctrical shower - if not showering at off peak rate times - makes e7 more questionable as well.

Did you check the rates on your bills against those 2 readings.

Yeah so we will see how often and for how long we need to keep the leave water heater on for and then go from there. I am very happy that according to calculations, if we keep like this, the usage should go down into the 2000s which is nice. 

In regards to the meter questions, what do you mean by a dual rate meter. Our meter has 2 readings (day and night), our bills have 2 readings also. However, when i check which tarrif we have on the app it says we just have standard variable. We get a quarterly bill and they only break down the total usage not daily so I wouldnt know how much is being used per day.

I definitely wouldnt know how long the water timer has been broken for unfortunately. I only discovered it when someone asked about it on this forum post.

victor2

QuantumCactus42 said:

Scot_39 said:

Many flats might have a smaller pressure relief / expansion tank above the main hot water cylinder - it's normally just a passive thing to take care of the small changes that happen when you heat water from c10C to c60C.

That might be what you see - but not sure - given you describe it as a box.

With 2 electric showers in the day you measured 6.7 kW is perfectly within normal expected range for summer - or winter excluding heating for that matter.  My numbers unless out all day or away - range around 5-8kWh - but will break that if wash the car or do a couple of loads of washing - especially towels and bedding.  And I'd add 1.5kWh to that for a second or subsequent shower.

A washing machine load will likely add around 0.5-1kWh depending on cycle and spin - unless do a cold wash - a lot of the difference in chosen temperature - heating the water and the clothes for higher temp / heavier washes will use more (e.g. towels).  2 small loads wont typically use anywhere near twice as much as 1 large load will  and of your list - those things are potentially washed at different temperatures anyway.

I talked in passing above of tpyical modern tanks having 1-2 kWh of losses - and pipe losses as any hot water run into the pipes as use hot taps - but it's important to realise some of that is in fact heating the flat a little - or could be.

For instance - my parents tank used to be in the kitchen - we never ever had to worry about freezing pipes / frost damage as a result - despite a single panel wood back door.  When old boiler was replaced by a combi - we put in a couple of small frost tubes to replace the heat leaking from tank to protect pipes on coldest nights.

 

My tank is in a small of hall airing cupboard - it keeps my towels and bedding damp free and helps finish off the drying when hang shirts etc in there - and the airing cupbouard is often notably hotter than I heat my hallways in winter - and so in winter if open the door - gives the upstairs hall a bit of a temp boost too.

If your heater was on cycling on its thermostat 24/7 because of the faulty timer - you would have been running at higher losses than a normal home - but your still going to have some.  As well as the actual hot water you will use.  But it is perfectly possibly you would only have to heat tank for say 1-2hrs every 2nd or third day if well insulated modern tank. 

You could leave it off - and rely on kettles etc for non shower washing and dishes etc - as some others have reported - but for me the convenience of hot on demand - is worth it.  Even if it might be costing 30p a day or more even at a decent night rate.

Notional usage targets and TDCVs are just that - you need to find your own balance.  Indications - not targets for you to aim for - if it doesn't suit your needs or affordability.

You gave us the single total from your Dec bills - but the daily numbers showed both registers in use - so you do now from that appear to have dual rate meter (if not dual rate tariff) - do you have the breakdown of differences for both day and night ?

And any idea how long the hot water Horstmann timer has been faulty ?

The faulty immersion switch would mean your not probably making the best of the night register and any split rate (if you have one).

But the elctrical shower - if not showering at off peak rate times - makes e7 more questionable as well.

Did you check the rates on your bills against those 2 readings.

Yeah so we will see how often and for how long we need to keep the leave water heater on for and then go from there. I am very happy that according to calculations, if we keep like this, the usage should go down into the 2000s which is nice. 

In regards to the meter questions, what do you mean by a dual rate meter. Our meter has 2 readings (day and night), our bills have 2 readings also. However, when i check which tarrif we have on the app it says we just have standard variable. We get a quarterly bill and they only break down the total usage not daily so I wouldnt know how much is being used per day.

I definitely wouldnt know how long the water timer has been broken for unfortunately. I only discovered it when someone asked about it on this forum post.

If the calculation of cost on your bills shows the same rate being used for both the day and night meter readings (kWh), then you are on a single rate tariff, not E7. 
If different rates are used then it will be an E7 tariff and you could have a problem with the readings being reversed. 

EssexHebridean

The reversal problem typically occurs where a supplier assumes that the meter is set as the "default standard" with R1 being day and R2 being night (R = register). Our old E7 meter was the other way round though - R2 was active on the peak hours, and R1 overnight - hence us too having issues with inputting readings via apps on a few occasions - the apps only seem to cope with "standard" and so the problem occurs if people don't know to look for that as an issue. 

As above though - if your current tariff charges you the same rate per unit regardless at what time of the day or night you use the electricity, that's not going to be an issue for you. Typically right now that single rate would likely be somewhere around 25p/kWh (as a rough guide - regionally that varies). 

Scot_39

QuantumCactus42 said:

Scot_39 said:

Many flats might have a smaller pressure relief / expansion tank above the main hot water cylinder - it's normally just a passive thing to take care of the small changes that happen when you heat water from c10C to c60C.

That might be what you see - but not sure - given you describe it as a box.

With 2 electric showers in the day you measured 6.7 kW is perfectly within normal expected range for summer - or winter excluding heating for that matter.  My numbers unless out all day or away - range around 5-8kWh - but will break that if wash the car or do a couple of loads of washing - especially towels and bedding.  And I'd add 1.5kWh to that for a second or subsequent shower.

A washing machine load will likely add around 0.5-1kWh depending on cycle and spin - unless do a cold wash - a lot of the difference in chosen temperature - heating the water and the clothes for higher temp / heavier washes will use more (e.g. towels).  2 small loads wont typically use anywhere near twice as much as 1 large load will  and of your list - those things are potentially washed at different temperatures anyway.

I talked in passing above of tpyical modern tanks having 1-2 kWh of losses - and pipe losses as any hot water run into the pipes as use hot taps - but it's important to realise some of that is in fact heating the flat a little - or could be.

For instance - my parents tank used to be in the kitchen - we never ever had to worry about freezing pipes / frost damage as a result - despite a single panel wood back door.  When old boiler was replaced by a combi - we put in a couple of small frost tubes to replace the heat leaking from tank to protect pipes on coldest nights.

 

My tank is in a small of hall airing cupboard - it keeps my towels and bedding damp free and helps finish off the drying when hang shirts etc in there - and the airing cupbouard is often notably hotter than I heat my hallways in winter - and so in winter if open the door - gives the upstairs hall a bit of a temp boost too.

If your heater was on cycling on its thermostat 24/7 because of the faulty timer - you would have been running at higher losses than a normal home - but your still going to have some.  As well as the actual hot water you will use.  But it is perfectly possibly you would only have to heat tank for say 1-2hrs every 2nd or third day if well insulated modern tank. 

You could leave it off - and rely on kettles etc for non shower washing and dishes etc - as some others have reported - but for me the convenience of hot on demand - is worth it.  Even if it might be costing 30p a day or more even at a decent night rate.

Notional usage targets and TDCVs are just that - you need to find your own balance.  Indications - not targets for you to aim for - if it doesn't suit your needs or affordability.

You gave us the single total from your Dec bills - but the daily numbers showed both registers in use - so you do now from that appear to have dual rate meter (if not dual rate tariff) - do you have the breakdown of differences for both day and night ?

And any idea how long the hot water Horstmann timer has been faulty ?

The faulty immersion switch would mean your not probably making the best of the night register and any split rate (if you have one).

But the elctrical shower - if not showering at off peak rate times - makes e7 more questionable as well.

Did you check the rates on your bills against those 2 readings.

Yeah so we will see how often and for how long we need to keep the leave water heater on for and then go from there. I am very happy that according to calculations, if we keep like this, the usage should go down into the 2000s which is nice. 

In regards to the meter questions, what do you mean by a dual rate meter. Our meter has 2 readings (day and night), our bills have 2 readings also. However, when i check which tarrif we have on the app it says we just have standard variable. We get a quarterly bill and they only break down the total usage not daily so I wouldnt know how much is being used per day.

I definitely wouldnt know how long the water timer has been broken for unfortunately. I only discovered it when someone asked about it on this forum post.

Some suppliers will add both readings if billing you on single rate - others will simply bill you off of both sets of readings - but at the single rate.

As above answer there is a standard variable single rate capped tariff and a standard (well at average unit price if not individual day and night price) economy 7 / multi-rate capped tariff. 

If there's only one total and one rate on the app - it would appear that at some stage your parents have requested single rate billing.

If the bill / app has a supply or so called MPAN number - does it begin 01 or 02 for the profile type ?

https://www.ssen.co.uk/our-services/service-information/what-is-a-mpan/

Some dont put the grid in just the digits

In either situation - unless you have a smart meter they can instantly convert - and you dont yet - but if have a RTS timeswitch should have in next 3 months - you are left with one "fix" or another.