Bank refusing refund for patio works not carried out

gilbo47

Hello

I'm in a bit of a pickle, with regards to being a victim of fraud and my bank refusing to refund me. Information (with timeline):

A conversation with a friend during winter 2023 that they had their patio laying and landscaping done.  My friend showed me photos of the job before / after / during and I was impressed.  My friend said he’d recommend the contractor.  I mentioned I needed mine doing and so I took the details of the person who did it. 

18th June 2024 – received quote on headed logo, addressed document from a company to relay Patio

9th July 2024 – paid 20% deposit.  Booked work in for November 4th 2024

Nov 4th 2024 – contractor turns up at my house, removes some slabs, measures, takes notes, sureveys site in details. Spends about 4 hours there, then presents me with a 30% start date invoice, which I duly pay assuming it was for materials and maybe machine hire, etc.

 

Nov 5th 2024 – December 18th 2024

 

Contractor doesn’t show up to continue / finish the work.  Multiple excuses given range from previous jobs overrunning due to cold weather / he has had a family bereavement / issues with truck.  Agree to resume work after Christmas, from Monday 13th Jan.  Admittedly now I start getting nervous.  I see whether he's listed on companies house, see if his invoice / quote has a VAT reg number - it doesn't.

 

Phone conversation Monday 13th Jan  - he admits he will not be continuing with my work due to ongoing issues with his truck he is “stuck”.  Agrees to refund me in full by 15th Jan.  15th Jan comes and goes – no refund.  I call him / email him.  He says there’s been problems with payment to me.  He will now refund by 31st Jan 2025.  31st Jan comes and goes.  No refund.  I call him / email him.  No response.  I keep trying to get in contact with him.  No response.

 

Monday 17th Feb 2025 I log a fraud case with my bank, having read article on MSE It seems I'm a victim of Authorized Push Payment (APP) Fraud . Giving them all the info above.  Lots of cross-questioning which I answered reasonably, succinctly and honestly.

On this call, (1hourish duration) My bank implies I would get a refund with language such as “should be with you within 24hours” and “we will waive the £100 excess”.  That’s after stating that both the deposit and day 1 30% invoice I paid are considered under different regulations since the deposit predates mandatory regulation and so is voluntary (which they signed up to and told me during the initial call they signed up to), but the day 1 invoice is covered under compulsory regulation.

 

Mon 24th February I am informed by text, from my bank that regarding my case, they are unable to refund me.  Case closed.  I phone up for more details – no specifics are given but I have the option to log a complaint which I do.  I am now awaiting a call back from complaints department.

 

The PSR website on APP fraud states:

“You won’t get your money back if you’re found to have been complicit in the fraud or grossly negligent. Gross negligence is a high bar and this exception does not apply to vulnerable consumers.”

 

So does anyone know – Is my bank correct? From what I’m reading on the PSR website (link above) it seems I should be awarded in my favor. Am I taking too much of a simplistic view?  Whats my best line of questioning with my bank as to WHY they refused to refund me?  Should I just simply ask “Assume I’m an internal auditor who has asked to explain to me why you think this victim of fraud was either complicit or grossly negligent.” If I do get an unsatisfactory response from my banks complaint department should I take it to the financial ombudsman? Is there anyone here who is "In the know" (so to speak) and can spot any "red flags" from my details above which could exempt me from the PSR regs?

Thanks for reading!

 

eskbanker

I'm not convinced that's fraud - even though you're not receiving what you paid for, that's not because the business was fraudulent as such but simply that they've effectively collapsed?

gilbo47

eskbanker said:

I'm not convinced that's fraud - even though you're not receiving what you paid for, that's not because the business was fraudulent as such but simply that they've effectively collapsed?

Fair enough but my bank did say on the phone call that they can confirm I have been a victim of fraud.  what precludes it, in your eyes, from it NOT being premediated, fraud?

p00hsticks

eskbanker said:

I'm not convinced that's fraud - even though you're not receiving what you paid for, that's not because the business was fraudulent as such but simply that they've effectively collapsed?

I concur - it doesn't sound like out and out fraud in the normal / banking sense to me, but rather a legitimate trader with presumably some money or other problems. If you have an address you could issue a Letter Before Action and follow up with a Small Courts Claim. 

eskbanker

APP fraud is also different to civil disputes, when you might pay a legitimate supplier for goods or services that are not received or are defective, where there is no intent to defraud. There are other consumer protections available for civil disputes under the Consumer Rights Act.

https://www.psr.org.uk/information-for-consumers/app-fraud-reimbursement-protections/

The fact that your friend had a decent job done by this contractor would suggest that it wasn't set up as a fraudulent enterprise.

I can't say why the bank apparently changed their minds but their later position seems justifiable to me.

gilbo47

LBA was issued, but sent back to me as "no longer at this address"

gilbo47

eskbanker said:

APP fraud is also different to civil disputes, when you might pay a legitimate supplier for goods or services that are not received or are defective, where there is no intent to defraud. There are other consumer protections available for civil disputes under the Consumer Rights Act.

<link redacted as I'm new and it's not allowed>

The fact that your friend had a decent job done by this contractor would suggest that it wasn't set up as a fraudulent enterprise.

I can't say why the bank apparently changed their minds but their later position seems justifiable to me.

right so I guess, when I talk to their complaints department I need to pursue the angle of "you confirmed I was a victim of Faster Payments or APP fraud", which they absolutely did.  I'm led to believe the complaints case handler will listen to the recorded call beforehand.

and genuinely it's also caused me great stress, thinking on Monday 17th Feb I was going to get money back and then a week later they backtrack.  I have come up with a plan b of getting the landscape work done in that time, it's been settled on and now we're back to square one.

MeteredOut

gilbo47 said:

eskbanker said:

APP fraud is also different to civil disputes, when you might pay a legitimate supplier for goods or services that are not received or are defective, where there is no intent to defraud. There are other consumer protections available for civil disputes under the Consumer Rights Act.

<link redacted as I'm new and it's not allowed>

The fact that your friend had a decent job done by this contractor would suggest that it wasn't set up as a fraudulent enterprise.

I can't say why the bank apparently changed their minds but their later position seems justifiable to me.

right so I guess, when I talk to their complaints department I need to pursue the angle of "you confirmed I was a victim of Faster Payments or APP fraud", which they absolutely did.  I'm led to believe the complaints case handler will listen to the recorded call beforehand.

and genuinely it's also caused me great stress, thinking on Monday 17th Feb I was going to get money back and then a week later they backtrack.  I have come up with a plan b of getting the landscape work done in that time, it's been settled on and now we're back to square one.

Above you said "My bank implies I would get a refund with language such as “should be with you within 24hours” and “we will waive the £100 excess”. 

But now you're saying they "confirmed I was a victim of Faster Payments or APP fraud"

Which was it?

I agree with others; this is not covered as fraud under the new (or even old) regulations.

First level fraud centre call staff will have been trained to not say anything that sounds like a decision has been made, but that doesn't mean they did not do that, so asking then to retrieve the call records is the right thing to do. Hopefully they can provide you with a transcript of the call.

screech_78

This isn’t fraud. You authorised payment to this person. It shouldn’t fall to the a bank to foot the bill. 

You would need to take court action, although will need an address and even if you win, there’s a very high chance you won’t see the money again. 

eskbanker

gilbo47 said:

eskbanker said:

APP fraud is also different to civil disputes, when you might pay a legitimate supplier for goods or services that are not received or are defective, where there is no intent to defraud. There are other consumer protections available for civil disputes under the Consumer Rights Act.

<link redacted as I'm new and it's not allowed>

The fact that your friend had a decent job done by this contractor would suggest that it wasn't set up as a fraudulent enterprise.

I can't say why the bank apparently changed their minds but their later position seems justifiable to me.

right so I guess, when I talk to their complaints department I need to pursue the angle of "you confirmed I was a victim of Faster Payments or APP fraud", which they absolutely did.  I'm led to believe the complaints case handler will listen to the recorded call beforehand.

and genuinely it's also caused me great stress, thinking on Monday 17th Feb I was going to get money back and then a week later they backtrack.

No harm in that line of argument but they're not actually obliged to honour what was originally stated if it was a mistake, and they may assert that it was stated provisionally, pending full investigation and documentation review, etc, if this initial discussion was all verbal?

Aylesbury_Duck

I too can see why the bank doesn't define this as fraud, and I don't think you can hold them to any implied commitment they may have made.  It is worth a complaint if you think they've handled you situation badly, but that might generate a goodwill gesture rather than a refund of payments sent to the contractor.

Pursuing the contractor is another matter.  You say your LBA was returned.  By whom?  Are you sure you sent the letter to the contractor's business address?  The trouble is, even if you were successful in court, if he has gone out of business, he may not have the means to pay.