Bank refusing refund for patio works not carried out

gilbo47

Grumpy_chap said:

gilbo47 said:

I just find it weird that, in some circumstances (ie mine) someone can make off with your cash, having not in any way fulfilled their part of the agreement. But they are not a criminal and have not committed a criminal act because they, apparently in the recent past have done some related things which suggest they didn't mean it to happen.

Well, consider another scenario where essentially the same thing happens.

Go into a department store and place an order for a piece of furniture, say £4k total.  Pay a £2k deposit (not by credit / debit card).  Furniture to be delivered in 12 weeks.  After 6 weeks the company goes into administration.  You are now an unsecured creditor to the tune of £2k.
No claim against the bank for fraud to reimburse you.
No claim against the company (gone).
Slim chance of recovering something eventually via the administrators.

I don't think in that scenario, you would be claiming fraud or theft.

In your case, you paid some money to a sole trader business for a patio.
The patio was not laid but the business has now ceased trading.
No claim against the bank.
No claim against the business (gone).
You may eventually track down the individual and recover something, possibly via the court.  

In fact, you scenario is possibly slightly better with the sole trader business than if it was a Ltd Co business as, if you locate the individual and they have any assets, those assets can not be so easily shielded from the business / recovery.

Exactly. I think you've proved my point. As a Sole trader he's liable and should be held to account.

Anyway I'm done. So be it. Cheers all!

RefluentBeans

gilbo47 said:

Quick question though. Suppose I were to find out he has a reestablished business in say 3-5 years...and I have an address. Could I then go after him? Is there a notion of "too much elapsed time?" (Yes he was a sole trader at the time I dealt with him)

OP this comes down to the amount of money lost in my opinion. Sole traders (as I understand it) don’t have limited company protection - meaning that the trader can’t just spin another company up and leave the company debts to the first company because limited companies are separate legal entities. I believe sole traders the debt can be assigned to the person so even if he spins a company up, he (personally) can be held liable (meaning any personal assets can be used to pay…)

The debt has a limitation - and generally debts are statute barred after 6 years. So hypothetically, you find him next year operating again you can start legal proceedings against him (and if you win - you have 20 years to claim the money too, I believe). 

I feel there has been much discussion about criminal charges vs civil proceedings. Civil proceedings don’t look at ‘guilt’, and so tend to avoid terms like fraud, theft etc as these have (as have been extensively discussed) other legal terms. 

In civil court you are proving there was a breach of contract and you are to be put in the same position you were before the breach occurred. This means if you paid £2000 and the trader removed 16 old slabs you are owed £2000 and 16 worn slabs (or the value of these slabs). The evidence threshold is ‘on the balance of probabilities’ - basically meaning that if two contradictory statements are made which one is more likely to be true based on evidence. In your case, the personal issues the contractor faced doesn’t negate the breach. From the sounds of it, you’ve been exceptionally reasonable to give them enough time to come back and remedy the work. For whatever reason, they haven’t, and the reasons largely don’t matter. There core facts are that your contract was breached, and you should be put in the position you were prior to the breach. 

Pragmatically - I’m not sure proceeding to try and them right now is the best solution. If they feel the walls are closing in, and they potentially owe child support/secured debts/unsecured debts then they may just declare bankruptcy and you would be at the end as a unsecured debtor (getting pennies on the pound years after!). Rather see if he makes an appearance in a few months time, and reach out again to see if you can come to some sort of payment plan. Failing that, I would wait until he’s appeared again then can look to start legal proceedings. 

Alternatively, you can try and sleuth to find out where he currently is, or pay for a person to find him. But this really depends on your situation and how much money we’re talking about. A loss of £20k is obviously different to a loss of £200. 

I hope that helps (and hopefully brings the discussion more back towards pragmatic solutions rather than arguing semantics on criminal intent). 

Grumpy_chap

gilbo47 said:

Exactly. I think you've proved my point. As a Sole trader he's liable and should be held to account.

Indeed, but you can't do that if you can't find him.
If you do find him, the route to holding him to account is via small claims.  That may result in a CCJ.
The value of the CCJ depends on what assets the individual has.

For now, there is little you can actually do.
You may find him working again in a while so maybe able to trace a future address that way.
He may patch things up at home and move back in - is his home near enough to your that you could drive by some evenings / overnight and see if his van returns?

screech_78

The lesson to take from this is not to pay for things like this with bank transfer. It offers pretty much zero protection (akin to handing someone a wad of cash) and when making a transfer to someone new, your bank literally gives you a warning that it may not be a good idea. 

gilbo47

screech_78 said:

The lesson to take from this is not to pay for things like this with bank transfer. It offers pretty much zero protection (akin to handing someone a wad of cash) and when making a transfer to someone new, your bank literally gives you a warning that it may not be a good idea. 

Yep. Let us know if you find builders / landscapers / roofers / plumbers / electricians who take credit card payment.

Aylesbury_Duck

gilbo47 said:

screech_78 said:

The lesson to take from this is not to pay for things like this with bank transfer. It offers pretty much zero protection (akin to handing someone a wad of cash) and when making a transfer to someone new, your bank literally gives you a warning that it may not be a good idea. 

Yep. Let us know if you find builders / landscapers / roofers / plumbers / electricians who take credit card payment.

It's tricky, but they are out there.  Remember that only some of the payment needs to be on a credit card to get S75 protection, even paying £1 of the total is enough.  I've paid small sums and deposits for cars, landscaping work, glazing and electrical work on a credit card, with the balance paid by bank transfer.  

gilbo47

Aylesbury_Duck said:

gilbo47 said:

screech_78 said:

The lesson to take from this is not to pay for things like this with bank transfer. It offers pretty much zero protection (akin to handing someone a wad of cash) and when making a transfer to someone new, your bank literally gives you a warning that it may not be a good idea. 

Yep. Let us know if you find builders / landscapers / roofers / plumbers / electricians who take credit card payment.

It's tricky, but they are out there.  Remember that only some of the payment needs to be on a credit card to get S75 protection, even paying £1 of the total is enough.  I've paid small sums and deposits for cars, landscaping work, glazing and electrical work on a credit card, with the balance paid by bank transfer.  

I wonder if it would count if I used PayPal which is tied to my credit card..

eskbanker

gilbo47 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

gilbo47 said:

screech_78 said:

The lesson to take from this is not to pay for things like this with bank transfer. It offers pretty much zero protection (akin to handing someone a wad of cash) and when making a transfer to someone new, your bank literally gives you a warning that it may not be a good idea. 

Yep. Let us know if you find builders / landscapers / roofers / plumbers / electricians who take credit card payment.

It's tricky, but they are out there.  Remember that only some of the payment needs to be on a credit card to get S75 protection, even paying £1 of the total is enough.  I've paid small sums and deposits for cars, landscaping work, glazing and electrical work on a credit card, with the balance paid by bank transfer.  

I wonder if it would count if I used PayPal which is tied to my credit card..

Not if you use your own PayPal account, as opposed to the merchant using them as a payment processor:

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/PayPal-Section75/

Edit: there are some other buyer protections available for PayPal payments though.

screech_78

gilbo47 said:

screech_78 said:

The lesson to take from this is not to pay for things like this with bank transfer. It offers pretty much zero protection (akin to handing someone a wad of cash) and when making a transfer to someone new, your bank literally gives you a warning that it may not be a good idea. 

Yep. Let us know if you find builders / landscapers / roofers / plumbers / electricians who take credit card payment.

My husband is a builder and takes credit/debit card payments. There are plenty out there that do. 

Grumpy_chap

gilbo47 said:

Yep. Let us know if you find builders / landscapers / roofers / plumbers / electricians who take credit card payment.

There are an increasing number that do and find it convenient with the platforms such as SumUp which allow any trader to have a card machine pin reader.