Bank refusing refund for patio works not carried out

Grumpy_chap

gilbo47 said:

18th June 2024 – received quote on headed logo, addressed document from a company to relay Patio

9th July 2024 – paid 20% deposit.  Booked work in for November 4th 2024

Nov 4th 2024 – contractor turns up at my house, removes some slabs, measures, takes notes, sureveys site in details. Spends about 4 hours there, then presents me with a 30% start date invoice, which I duly pay assuming it was for materials and maybe machine hire, etc.

 

Nov 5th 2024 – December 18th 2024

 

Contractor doesn’t show up to continue / finish the work.  Multiple excuses given range from previous jobs overrunning due to cold weather / he has had a family bereavement / issues with truck.  Agree to resume work after Christmas, from Monday 13th Jan.  Admittedly now I start getting nervous.  I see whether he's listed on companies house, see if his invoice / quote has a VAT reg number - it doesn't.

 

Phone conversation Monday 13th Jan  - he admits he will not be continuing with my work due to ongoing issues with his truck he is “stuck”.  Agrees to refund me in full by 15th Jan.  15th Jan comes and goes – no refund.  I call him / email him.  He says there’s been problems with payment to me.  He will now refund by 31st Jan 2025.  31st Jan comes and goes.  No refund.  I call him / email him.  No response.  I keep trying to get in contact with him.  No response.

gilbo47 said:

LBA was issued, but sent back to me as "no longer at this address"

gilbo47 said:

The van disappeared and hasn't been seen since about mid Nov. But the 2nd car is there and gets used. I can only surmise he's moved out but his partner is still there.

I don't think this is a fraud, and certainly not a push payment fraud for which the bank could potentially be liable.  That is probably a fruitless avenue to pursue.

The LBA that was returned has not reached the individual / company concerned - was it a sole trader or a Ltd Co?  I am guessing sole trader.

Reading between the lines, the tradesman quoted the work and had every intent of completing the work for you. 
You paid some first stage payments and the work began but then the tradesman went awol.
That ties up with the van disappearing.
It really does seem as though you are the collateral damage in the individual's family break up.  Quite possibly he wants to disappear so he can't be found by the ex-partner, possibly seeking to avoid child maintenance or other money he owes the ex-partner.
There is probably a part of the tradesman that would want to get your job done and receive the remaining money, but he can't because he fears turning up to your address will reveal his location to the ex-partner.

The practical situation is that you probably need to put this down to one of the experiences of life.
If this tradesman does not want to be found, then finding him and getting money from him is not going to happen.

gilbo47

Aylesbury_Duck said:

I too can see why the bank doesn't define this as fraud, and I don't think you can hold them to any implied commitment they may have made.  It is worth a complaint if you think they've handled you situation badly, but that might generate a goodwill gesture rather than a refund of payments sent to the contractor.

Pursuing the contractor is another matter.  You say your LBA was returned.  By whom?  Are you sure you sent the letter to the contractor's business address?  The trouble is, even if you were successful in court, if he has gone out of business, he may not have the means to pay.

Wow. I think I've found him!! Is it you?!! Haha! Joking.

Seriously though your response made me laugh. Had he got drunk, got behind the wheel and put a child in hospital due to reckless driving he'd be 100% responsible for his actions even though he "didn't mean to"  as he "was going through a bad patch"

But steal my money? "Aww bless him I'm sure he didn't mean it...so yeah just pick yourself up and learn from it"

😁 

Anyway yeah cheers all for the advice

gilbo47

Grumpy_chap said:

gilbo47 said:

18th June 2024 – received quote on headed logo, addressed document from a company to relay Patio

9th July 2024 – paid 20% deposit.  Booked work in for November 4th 2024

Nov 4th 2024 – contractor turns up at my house, removes some slabs, measures, takes notes, sureveys site in details. Spends about 4 hours there, then presents me with a 30% start date invoice, which I duly pay assuming it was for materials and maybe machine hire, etc.

 

Nov 5th 2024 – December 18th 2024

 

Contractor doesn’t show up to continue / finish the work.  Multiple excuses given range from previous jobs overrunning due to cold weather / he has had a family bereavement / issues with truck.  Agree to resume work after Christmas, from Monday 13th Jan.  Admittedly now I start getting nervous.  I see whether he's listed on companies house, see if his invoice / quote has a VAT reg number - it doesn't.

 

Phone conversation Monday 13th Jan  - he admits he will not be continuing with my work due to ongoing issues with his truck he is “stuck”.  Agrees to refund me in full by 15th Jan.  15th Jan comes and goes – no refund.  I call him / email him.  He says there’s been problems with payment to me.  He will now refund by 31st Jan 2025.  31st Jan comes and goes.  No refund.  I call him / email him.  No response.  I keep trying to get in contact with him.  No response.

gilbo47 said:

LBA was issued, but sent back to me as "no longer at this address"

gilbo47 said:

The van disappeared and hasn't been seen since about mid Nov. But the 2nd car is there and gets used. I can only surmise he's moved out but his partner is still there.

I don't think this is a fraud, and certainly not a push payment fraud for which the bank could potentially be liable.  That is probably a fruitless avenue to pursue.

The LBA that was returned has not reached the individual / company concerned - was it a sole trader or a Ltd Co?  I am guessing sole trader.

Reading between the lines, the tradesman quoted the work and had every intent of completing the work for you. 
You paid some first stage payments and the work began but then the tradesman went awol.
That ties up with the van disappearing.
It really does seem as though you are the collateral damage in the individual's family break up.  Quite possibly he wants to disappear so he can't be found by the ex-partner, possibly seeking to avoid child maintenance or other money he owes the ex-partner.
There is probably a part of the tradesman that would want to get your job done and receive the remaining money, but he can't because he fears turning up to your address will reveal his location to the ex-partner.

The practical situation is that you probably need to put this down to one of the experiences of life.
If this tradesman does not want to be found, then finding him and getting money from him is not going to happen.

My last reply was meant to be a reply to this one. Sorry!

Hoenir

gilbo47 said:

18th June 2024 – received quote on headed logo, addressed document from a company to relay Patio

9th July 2024 – paid 20% deposit.  Booked work in for November 4th 2024

Nov 4th 2024 – contractor turns up at my house, removes some slabs, measures, takes notes, sureveys site in details. Spends about 4 hours there, then presents me with a 30% start date invoice, which I duly pay assuming it was for materials and maybe machine hire, etc.

 

How did the contractor estimate and quote for the job in June ?  On what basis was the 20% deposit paid? 

gilbo47

Hoenir said:

gilbo47 said:

18th June 2024 – received quote on headed logo, addressed document from a company to relay Patio

9th July 2024 – paid 20% deposit.  Booked work in for November 4th 2024

Nov 4th 2024 – contractor turns up at my house, removes some slabs, measures, takes notes, sureveys site in details. Spends about 4 hours there, then presents me with a 30% start date invoice, which I duly pay assuming it was for materials and maybe machine hire, etc.

 

How did the contractor estimate and quote for the job in June ?  On what basis was the 20% deposit paid? 

He came over, measured, explained what needs to be done and a few days later supplied an itemised quote by email. The 20% deposit was to secure the booking and start date which we agreed to be Nov 4th 2024

Aylesbury_Duck

gilbo47 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

I too can see why the bank doesn't define this as fraud, and I don't think you can hold them to any implied commitment they may have made.  It is worth a complaint if you think they've handled you situation badly, but that might generate a goodwill gesture rather than a refund of payments sent to the contractor.

Pursuing the contractor is another matter.  You say your LBA was returned.  By whom?  Are you sure you sent the letter to the contractor's business address?  The trouble is, even if you were successful in court, if he has gone out of business, he may not have the means to pay.

Wow. I think I've found him!! Is it you?!! Haha! Joking.

Seriously though your response made me laugh. Had he got drunk, got behind the wheel and put a child in hospital due to reckless driving he'd be 100% responsible for his actions even though he "didn't mean to"  as he "was going through a bad patch"

But steal my money? "Aww bless him I'm sure he didn't mean it...so yeah just pick yourself up and learn from it"

😁 

Anyway yeah cheers all for the advice

I know your response was to Grumpy-chap's post, but he has a point.  He may have correctly guessed what's gone one behind the scenes (and it would be my best guess, based on the circumstances you describe) or he could be way off and you have fallen victim to someone who created this whole situation intentionally from the start.  If that is the case, perhaps you need to ask your friend some questions about their recommendation.

Whatever the real situation and motivation, the bottom line is you can't get money out of someone you can't track down and who doesn't have it, so you're going to need to put some legwork in to establish where he is and whether he has assets that make legal action worth spending hundreds of pounds on.

gilbo47

Aylesbury_Duck said:

gilbo47 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

I too can see why the bank doesn't define this as fraud, and I don't think you can hold them to any implied commitment they may have made.  It is worth a complaint if you think they've handled you situation badly, but that might generate a goodwill gesture rather than a refund of payments sent to the contractor.

Pursuing the contractor is another matter.  You say your LBA was returned.  By whom?  Are you sure you sent the letter to the contractor's business address?  The trouble is, even if you were successful in court, if he has gone out of business, he may not have the means to pay.

Wow. I think I've found him!! Is it you?!! Haha! Joking.

Seriously though your response made me laugh. Had he got drunk, got behind the wheel and put a child in hospital due to reckless driving he'd be 100% responsible for his actions even though he "didn't mean to"  as he "was going through a bad patch"

But steal my money? "Aww bless him I'm sure he didn't mean it...so yeah just pick yourself up and learn from it"

😁 

Anyway yeah cheers all for the advice

I know your response was to Grumpy-chap's post, but he has a point.  He may have correctly guessed what's gone one behind the scenes (and it would be my best guess, based on the circumstances you describe) or he could be way off and you have fallen victim to someone who created this whole situation intentionally from the start.  If that is the case, perhaps you need to ask your friend some questions about their recommendation.

Whatever the real situation and motivation, the bottom line is you can't get money out of someone you can't track down and who doesn't have it, so you're going to need to put some legwork in to establish where he is and whether he has assets that make legal action worth spending hundreds of pounds on.

Yes I know and most of what you and everyone has said is appreciated but I can't say hasn't already occurred to me previously in my own musings. 

I was just using humour or the healing power of laughter to kind of draw a line under it!

Cheers all.

Grumpy_chap

gilbo47 said:

Wow. I think I've found him!! Is it you?!! Haha! Joking.

Seriously though your response made me laugh. Had he got drunk, got behind the wheel and put a child in hospital due to reckless driving he'd be 100% responsible for his actions even though he "didn't mean to"  as he "was going through a bad patch"

But steal my money? "Aww bless him I'm sure he didn't mean it...so yeah just pick yourself up and learn from it"

😁 

Anyway yeah cheers all for the advice

gilbo47 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

gilbo47 said:

18th June 2024 – received quote on headed logo, addressed document from a company to relay Patio

9th July 2024 – paid 20% deposit.  Booked work in for November 4th 2024

Nov 4th 2024 – contractor turns up at my house, removes some slabs, measures, takes notes, sureveys site in details. Spends about 4 hours there, then presents me with a 30% start date invoice, which I duly pay assuming it was for materials and maybe machine hire, etc.

 

Nov 5th 2024 – December 18th 2024

 

Contractor doesn’t show up to continue / finish the work.  Multiple excuses given range from previous jobs overrunning due to cold weather / he has had a family bereavement / issues with truck.  Agree to resume work after Christmas, from Monday 13th Jan.  Admittedly now I start getting nervous.  I see whether he's listed on companies house, see if his invoice / quote has a VAT reg number - it doesn't.

 

Phone conversation Monday 13th Jan  - he admits he will not be continuing with my work due to ongoing issues with his truck he is “stuck”.  Agrees to refund me in full by 15th Jan.  15th Jan comes and goes – no refund.  I call him / email him.  He says there’s been problems with payment to me.  He will now refund by 31st Jan 2025.  31st Jan comes and goes.  No refund.  I call him / email him.  No response.  I keep trying to get in contact with him.  No response.

gilbo47 said:

LBA was issued, but sent back to me as "no longer at this address"

gilbo47 said:

The van disappeared and hasn't been seen since about mid Nov. But the 2nd car is there and gets used. I can only surmise he's moved out but his partner is still there.

I don't think this is a fraud, and certainly not a push payment fraud for which the bank could potentially be liable.  That is probably a fruitless avenue to pursue.

The LBA that was returned has not reached the individual / company concerned - was it a sole trader or a Ltd Co?  I am guessing sole trader.

Reading between the lines, the tradesman quoted the work and had every intent of completing the work for you. 
You paid some first stage payments and the work began but then the tradesman went awol.
That ties up with the van disappearing.
It really does seem as though you are the collateral damage in the individual's family break up.  Quite possibly he wants to disappear so he can't be found by the ex-partner, possibly seeking to avoid child maintenance or other money he owes the ex-partner.
There is probably a part of the tradesman that would want to get your job done and receive the remaining money, but he can't because he fears turning up to your address will reveal his location to the ex-partner.

The practical situation is that you probably need to put this down to one of the experiences of life.
If this tradesman does not want to be found, then finding him and getting money from him is not going to happen.

My last reply was meant to be a reply to this one. Sorry!

I really did not mean to belittle the situation and it is highly unfortunate that my thesis is really not what you wanted to hear.

However, I really can't see, and again not what you wanted to hear, that this was a scam / fraud from the outset.  It was a very complex scam if it was.
There is the original recommendation from a friend and you have seen the work done.  I assume that was a friend and not a brand new acquaintance.
Then there is the report from the colleague at work who lived a few doors from the tradesman.
So, that is two very strong markers towards the original intent of the tradesman being genuine.

The whole thing would be too long, too drawn out and far too complex, creating trust over a couple of years to scam you from the cost of half a patio.  This is not the sort of thing that you see in the movies where a prolonged planning goes into stealing the Crown Jewels.

I also did not intend to suggest to "just pick yourself up and learn from it" so sorry if that is how my comment came across.  It is just, from a practical perspective, there is nothing you can do to recover money from someone who  vanished and really does not want to be found.  If you can establish an address for the individual - and more than just a fleeting stopping place - then pursuing some recovery may become viable, assuming that there are funds accessible that can be recovered.

gilbo47

Grumpy_chap said:

gilbo47 said:

Wow. I think I've found him!! Is it you?!! Haha! Joking.

Seriously though your response made me laugh. Had he got drunk, got behind the wheel and put a child in hospital due to reckless driving he'd be 100% responsible for his actions even though he "didn't mean to"  as he "was going through a bad patch"

But steal my money? "Aww bless him I'm sure he didn't mean it...so yeah just pick yourself up and learn from it"

😁 

Anyway yeah cheers all for the advice

gilbo47 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

gilbo47 said:

18th June 2024 – received quote on headed logo, addressed document from a company to relay Patio

9th July 2024 – paid 20% deposit.  Booked work in for November 4th 2024

Nov 4th 2024 – contractor turns up at my house, removes some slabs, measures, takes notes, sureveys site in details. Spends about 4 hours there, then presents me with a 30% start date invoice, which I duly pay assuming it was for materials and maybe machine hire, etc.

 

Nov 5th 2024 – December 18th 2024

 

Contractor doesn’t show up to continue / finish the work.  Multiple excuses given range from previous jobs overrunning due to cold weather / he has had a family bereavement / issues with truck.  Agree to resume work after Christmas, from Monday 13th Jan.  Admittedly now I start getting nervous.  I see whether he's listed on companies house, see if his invoice / quote has a VAT reg number - it doesn't.

 

Phone conversation Monday 13th Jan  - he admits he will not be continuing with my work due to ongoing issues with his truck he is “stuck”.  Agrees to refund me in full by 15th Jan.  15th Jan comes and goes – no refund.  I call him / email him.  He says there’s been problems with payment to me.  He will now refund by 31st Jan 2025.  31st Jan comes and goes.  No refund.  I call him / email him.  No response.  I keep trying to get in contact with him.  No response.

gilbo47 said:

LBA was issued, but sent back to me as "no longer at this address"

gilbo47 said:

The van disappeared and hasn't been seen since about mid Nov. But the 2nd car is there and gets used. I can only surmise he's moved out but his partner is still there.

I don't think this is a fraud, and certainly not a push payment fraud for which the bank could potentially be liable.  That is probably a fruitless avenue to pursue.

The LBA that was returned has not reached the individual / company concerned - was it a sole trader or a Ltd Co?  I am guessing sole trader.

Reading between the lines, the tradesman quoted the work and had every intent of completing the work for you. 
You paid some first stage payments and the work began but then the tradesman went awol.
That ties up with the van disappearing.
It really does seem as though you are the collateral damage in the individual's family break up.  Quite possibly he wants to disappear so he can't be found by the ex-partner, possibly seeking to avoid child maintenance or other money he owes the ex-partner.
There is probably a part of the tradesman that would want to get your job done and receive the remaining money, but he can't because he fears turning up to your address will reveal his location to the ex-partner.

The practical situation is that you probably need to put this down to one of the experiences of life.
If this tradesman does not want to be found, then finding him and getting money from him is not going to happen.

My last reply was meant to be a reply to this one. Sorry!

I really did not mean to belittle the situation and it is highly unfortunate that my thesis is really not what you wanted to hear.

However, I really can't see, and again not what you wanted to hear, that this was a scam / fraud from the outset.  It was a very complex scam if it was.
There is the original recommendation from a friend and you have seen the work done.  I assume that was a friend and not a brand new acquaintance.
Then there is the report from the colleague at work who lived a few doors from the tradesman.
So, that is two very strong markers towards the original intent of the tradesman being genuine.

The whole thing would be too long, too drawn out and far too complex, creating trust over a couple of years to scam you from the cost of half a patio.  This is not the sort of thing that you see in the movies where a prolonged planning goes into stealing the Crown Jewels.

I also did not intend to suggest to "just pick yourself up and learn from it" so sorry if that is how my comment came across.  It is just, from a practical perspective, there is nothing you can do to recover money from someone who  vanished and really does not want to be found.  If you can establish an address for the individual - and more than just a fleeting stopping place - then pursuing some recovery may become viable, assuming that there are funds accessible that can be recovered.

That's all understood...and in all honesty no harm done. It's just my style to pick myself up with a bit of humour so I just humorously paraphrased you, as, at the time, if im honest with myself, I came to the same conclusions!! So please don't feel bad.

Thanks again for everyone's advice. Got to take the whole thing on the chin. I'll still have a word with my bank as I still do believe the original call implied I was covered but I'm under no illusions this will lead to anything like a resolution.

gilbo47

Quick question though. Suppose I were to find out he has a reestablished business in say 3-5 years...and I have an address. Could I then go after him? Is there a notion of "too much elapsed time?" (Yes he was a sole trader at the time I dealt with him)