Electric car

born_again

boobyd said:

born_again said:

facade said:

Can you have a home charger though?

Home chargers with all the flashing lights & stuff are about £1000 including installation, which is spectacularly poor value for money unless you are doing 100+ miles a day, and have a smartmeter, so you can change to an EV tariff and pay about 7p per KWh for 5 hours in the wee hours. (but the cynics, like me, will tell you that having a smart charger and smart meter is making it easy for HMRC to tax every KWh that goes into the car, because the smart meter & charger will snitch you up)

Well we payed for ours in 9 months with the saving over petrol costs compared to what we payed in electric to charge the car to do the same miles. Only do 6K a year.

Won't get into granny charger argument. It will only cause a lot of flames.

I use a granny,had an outside socket already,for £100 had earth rod installed and socket upgraded to EV charging.
Works fine for me,do my 30/40 miles a day,charge for the 5 hours a night at 9p kwh to top back up,about £1.20.
If I go on longer journeys just plug in on peak hours at 23p kwh to charge back up .
Anything longer ,use Superchargers,what I've saved over the weeks I don't mind the Supercharger cost for the bi monthly long journeys.

Around what I do mileage wise.
But my difference is I charge daytime @7p & get whole house @ 7P (True MSE)
Cost of a decent Granny charger, couple of hundred £, install of a  BS 1363-2 socket etc, again a couple of hundred £ 
half way to the cost of a proper charger🤷‍♀️ 

Car_54

mikrt said:

Won't get into granny charger argument. It will only cause a lot of flames.

It isn't an argument though, it is money saving.

 But it IS an argument though. On safety grounds, not financial. They are not recommended for anything other than occasional use. 

I'm no expert, but that seems highly dubious.

Electrical systems and equipment are either safe (to within legal standards) or they are not. Does "occasional use" mean that - occasionally - the user may be electrocuted, or his house burned down? Or what?

Ectophile

Car_54 said:

mikrt said:

Won't get into granny charger argument. It will only cause a lot of flames.

It isn't an argument though, it is money saving.

 But it IS an argument though. On safety grounds, not financial. They are not recommended for anything other than occasional use. 

I'm no expert, but that seems highly dubious.

Electrical systems and equipment are either safe (to within legal standards) or they are not. Does "occasional use" mean that - occasionally - the user may be electrocuted, or his house burned down? Or what?

It's more about the plug and socket overheating.  An "granny lead" will draw about 10A from a socket.  A modern car might take 20 hours to charge.

It's rather different from plugging in a kettle that may draw 13A but only for a few minutes.

If it's a brand new socket from a reputable maker, it should be fine.  If it's old and a bit worn, or if the socket was made in China from the cheapest materials, then the socket could cook.  Ideally, you should use a special "EV rated" socket. These have good solid brass contacts, of the sort that every socket should really have but it adds a few pence to the manufacturing cost.

WellKnownSid

swjf1q said:

I'm thinking of buying an electric car. I don't have a home charger yet, so i'd need to consider this. But my biggest worry is about running out of battery. 
I can't see any information how you use onstreet electric charges. 
So I was wondering if anyone could help me answer the following questions.

- How to do you use on street charges
- Can you top-up, say a fixed amount. So for example, when i fill my car i put £20 in. 
-How do you know which is the cheapest charges?
- Do you still need to pay for parking when you are charging a car at the car park?

I reckon manufacturers keep it a secret to prevent people buying EVs  

There are two types of 'charger' - AC or DC.  Alternating Current, the same stuff that comes out of your sockets at home and Direct Current - what's stored in your car's battery.

AC is used for slow charging - anything up to 22kW (about "90 miles per hour").  Some public outlets are supplied with a lead but most are just a socket that you plug your car into.  Technically on AC it's not a charger at all - it's literally just a mains cable with an extra control signal which tells the car how much it power it's allowed to take.

Public AC sockets are generally cheaper than DC - around 50p / kWh.

How to use them?  Essentially plug your cable into the charger socket, then plug the other end of the cable into the car.  There will be a flap you'll open by (pressing a button or it'll be automatic in some cases), and possibly an internal flap to uncover the top part of the socket which will look like this:



Payment may be through contactless or via an app.  Both the app and your car's app will be able to tell you how many kWh you've taken.  When you've finished you'll be able to stop the charging using the app, your car's app or pressing a button on the dash.  Yes, you can just 'load' £20 onto several of the apps and it'll cut off once you hit that.  Generally you'll unplug the car first then pull out your cable from the socket.

DC is for fast charging - these operate at higher currents so the cables are always attached as they are thicker and have to be cooled.  The top of the plug is the same as the AC part above, but there are two extra pins at the bottom - so you might need to uncover the bottom set of pins by opening another flap on your car.  Payment will be similar to AC - either contactless or via an app.



First couple of times you charge is no different to the first couple of times you used a filling station - but you'll soon find it's as easy as plugging in an electric kettle.  If you have the dexterity to fill up a conventional car using "pay at pump" technology then EV is no more complicated, just different.

There are plenty of websites showing how much the fees are - and some sites are starting to advertise (a la filling stations).

Tools like zap-map will show all of the different providers, but if you then download one of the specific apps to use and pay, you may find it's cheaper than the headline rate as part of the incentive for using the app.  Some, like Tesla, offer a subscription service if you find you'll be using them a lot.

Parking
Most car parking isn't joined up enough yet to consider the needs of EV charging vs parking, even if they provide dedicated spaces - so generally yes you pay for parking.  The advantage is that all of the shopping centre car parks we frequent when we're out travelling are packed with EVs but none of them are ever charging at the time so you are pretty much guaranteed an extra-wide parking space and a full charge.  The other advantage is that many of the multi-storeys have 22kW EVSEs which means 20%-100% in a little under two hours, if your car supports it.  Not all cars do - many Teslas only charge at 11kW whilst our old-tech city EV will happily charge at 22kW on AC.

Home charging
If you can get a home EVSE then do it - 7kW charging (around "30 miles per hour") is fast enough to guarantee a decent fill-up even with the most stingy of tariffs.  My advice is to investigate the different tariffs available - we changed to a special "EV only" tariff which also applies to the entire house for 7 hours overnight.  Last month with the cold weather we saved £400 on household electricity alone - so it's worth doing the maths.

A granny cable isn't inherently unsafe, but it does create some risks.  The main one is that pulling 10A for potentially 24-30 hours or more could overheat the socket.  The 13A plug on a granny cable is therefore fitted with a thermocouple which monitors for signs of overheating.

There are some more esoteric (but possible) risks that would be resolved with a 'proper' EVSE installed by a qualified electrician - lost earth/neutral faults when the kind folks of the local traveller community* (*other criminal communities are available) decide to steal the copper from your local 11kV transformer could potentially render your car's exterior (a large piece of metal sat on insulating rubber) "live".  Additionally the car's pulsed DC load can saturate the toroidal transformer fitted inside your consumer unit - so if Snuffles the dog chews through the electric iron cable one evening whilst your car is outside charging there is a possibility your house RCD won't trip and you'll have to replace more than the cable to the iron.

The biggest risk with a granny cable, though, remains operator error.  Some clown deciding to stack up a load of wound up extension leads Chevy Chase style in order to reach the car.  Big no-no - it needs to be plugged into a permanently fitted outlet.

Good luck on your decision - they vast majority of EV users wouldn't go back to an ICE for good reason, if you or your children are impacted in any way by NVH then EV really is the only way to go.  Just the lack of vibration means you arrive having travelled a long distance far less fatigued.  If you can charge at home it's a no-brainer.  Our little Zoe can do Scotland to London with a single stop for lunch at the Tesla public superchargers at Trentham.  Not only do you enjoy the shops and garden centre instead of a crowded service station, it's much cheaper than the chargers on the motorway.

LightFlare

Ectophile said:

Car_54 said:

mikrt said:

Won't get into granny charger argument. It will only cause a lot of flames.

It isn't an argument though, it is money saving.

 But it IS an argument though. On safety grounds, not financial. They are not recommended for anything other than occasional use. 

I'm no expert, but that seems highly dubious.

Electrical systems and equipment are either safe (to within legal standards) or they are not. Does "occasional use" mean that - occasionally - the user may be electrocuted, or his house burned down? Or what?

It's more about the plug and socket overheating.  An "granny lead" will draw about 10A from a socket.  A modern car might take 20 hours to charge.

It's rather different from plugging in a kettle that may draw 13A but only for a few minutes.

If it's a brand new socket from a reputable maker, it should be fine.  If it's old and a bit worn, or if the socket was made in China from the cheapest materials, then the socket could cook.  Ideally, you should use a special "EV rated" socket. These have good solid brass contacts, of the sort that every socket should really have but it adds a few pence to the manufacturing cost.

likely the car will also fall into this category

flaneurs_lobster

Read over the screeds of complicated descriptions, explanations, diagrams of different plugs'n'sockets, handy hints on where to stop for an hour or so while you charge, warnings about the wrong sort of electricity, topped off with a bit of mild bigotry about Travellers.

Then see OP's throwaway about "topping up with £20's worth of petrol". 

Still want an EV?

Grumpy_chap

Ectophile said:

Car_54 said:

mikrt said:

Won't get into granny charger argument. It will only cause a lot of flames.

It isn't an argument though, it is money saving.

 But it IS an argument though. On safety grounds, not financial. They are not recommended for anything other than occasional use. 

I'm no expert, but that seems highly dubious.

Electrical systems and equipment are either safe (to within legal standards) or they are not. Does "occasional use" mean that - occasionally - the user may be electrocuted, or his house burned down? Or what?

It's more about the plug and socket overheating.  An "granny lead" will draw about 10A from a socket.  A modern car might take 20 hours to charge.

It's rather different from plugging in a kettle that may draw 13A but only for a few minutes.

If it's a brand new socket from a reputable maker, it should be fine.  If it's old and a bit worn, or if the socket was made in China from the cheapest materials, then the socket could cook.  Ideally, you should use a special "EV rated" socket. These have good solid brass contacts, of the sort that every socket should really have but it adds a few pence to the manufacturing cost.

I'm also dubious.

How does a car drawing 10 A for an extended period vary from an electric heater also drawing 3kW power for an extended period?
Unless a tea towel is laid over them, electric heaters do not burst into flames.

This whole thing about EV charging causing fires seems to be scaremongering.
Do you have any facts or statistics that back up the claims being made?

Car_54

LightFlare said:

Ectophile said:

Car_54 said:

mikrt said:

Won't get into granny charger argument. It will only cause a lot of flames.

It isn't an argument though, it is money saving.

 But it IS an argument though. On safety grounds, not financial. They are not recommended for anything other than occasional use. 

I'm no expert, but that seems highly dubious.

Electrical systems and equipment are either safe (to within legal standards) or they are not. Does "occasional use" mean that - occasionally - the user may be electrocuted, or his house burned down? Or what?

It's more about the plug and socket overheating.  An "granny lead" will draw about 10A from a socket.  A modern car might take 20 hours to charge.

It's rather different from plugging in a kettle that may draw 13A but only for a few minutes.

If it's a brand new socket from a reputable maker, it should be fine.  If it's old and a bit worn, or if the socket was made in China from the cheapest materials, then the socket could cook.  Ideally, you should use a special "EV rated" socket. These have good solid brass contacts, of the sort that every socket should really have but it adds a few pence to the manufacturing cost.

likely the car will also fall into this category

Have you any evidence to support the idea that Chinese cars are somehow sub-standard?

Are you perhaps nostalgic for the good old days of British Leyland quality?

Herzlos

Grumpy_chap said:

How does a car drawing 10 A for an extended period vary from an electric heater also drawing 3kW power for an extended period?
Unless a tea towel is laid over them, electric heaters do not burst into flames.

Leaving a 3kW heater running long term is a bad idea too. Electrics can get hot, and too much heat can melt sockets, cables etc. It's usually fine right until it isn't.

LightFlare

Car_54 said:

LightFlare said:

Ectophile said:

Car_54 said:

mikrt said:

Won't get into granny charger argument. It will only cause a lot of flames.

It isn't an argument though, it is money saving.

 But it IS an argument though. On safety grounds, not financial. They are not recommended for anything other than occasional use. 

I'm no expert, but that seems highly dubious.

Electrical systems and equipment are either safe (to within legal standards) or they are not. Does "occasional use" mean that - occasionally - the user may be electrocuted, or his house burned down? Or what?

It's more about the plug and socket overheating.  An "granny lead" will draw about 10A from a socket.  A modern car might take 20 hours to charge.

It's rather different from plugging in a kettle that may draw 13A but only for a few minutes.

If it's a brand new socket from a reputable maker, it should be fine.  If it's old and a bit worn, or if the socket was made in China from the cheapest materials, then the socket could cook.  Ideally, you should use a special "EV rated" socket. These have good solid brass contacts, of the sort that every socket should really have but it adds a few pence to the manufacturing cost.

likely the car will also fall into this category

Have you any evidence to support the idea that Chinese cars are somehow sub-standard?

Are you perhaps nostalgic for the good old days of British Leyland quality?

Wasn’t actually what I quoted - more that they are (probably) made from cheap materials