Electric car

FarmerHorse

flaneurs_lobster said:

Read over the screeds of complicated descriptions, explanations, diagrams of different plugs'n'sockets, handy hints on where to stop for an hour or so while you charge, warnings about the wrong sort of electricity, topped off with a bit of mild bigotry about Travellers.

Then see OP's throwaway about "topping up with £20's worth of petrol". 

Still want an EV?

Yes. It’s a thorough post covering all the points the OP wanted to know, and more. If you wrote a post describing in detail how to fill an ICE car with fuel avoiding mis-fuelling, price differentials at different sites and the ways to pay it would be just as easy to make a post as long as that one. 

My stint in an electric van showed me how easy it all is. Inventing problems doesn’t win the argument against EVs. 

boobyd

born_again said:

boobyd said:

born_again said:

facade said:

Can you have a home charger though?

Home chargers with all the flashing lights & stuff are about £1000 including installation, which is spectacularly poor value for money unless you are doing 100+ miles a day, and have a smartmeter, so you can change to an EV tariff and pay about 7p per KWh for 5 hours in the wee hours. (but the cynics, like me, will tell you that having a smart charger and smart meter is making it easy for HMRC to tax every KWh that goes into the car, because the smart meter & charger will snitch you up)

Well we payed for ours in 9 months with the saving over petrol costs compared to what we payed in electric to charge the car to do the same miles. Only do 6K a year.

Won't get into granny charger argument. It will only cause a lot of flames.

I use a granny,had an outside socket already,for £100 had earth rod installed and socket upgraded to EV charging.
Works fine for me,do my 30/40 miles a day,charge for the 5 hours a night at 9p kwh to top back up,about £1.20.
If I go on longer journeys just plug in on peak hours at 23p kwh to charge back up .
Anything longer ,use Superchargers,what I've saved over the weeks I don't mind the Supercharger cost for the bi monthly long journeys.

Around what I do mileage wise.
But my difference is I charge daytime @7p & get whole house @ 7P (True MSE)
Cost of a decent Granny charger, couple of hundred £, install of a  BS 1363-2 socket etc, again a couple of hundred £ 
half way to the cost of a proper charger🤷‍♀️ 

My landlord was petty,wouldn't allow a wall charger ,but has an outside socket!
With prices waiting to exit current supplier.
With charging with the granny cable,max I do is 5 hours,never done when house is unattended.When first started did for 2 house then left an hour to do another 2 hour charge.
Plug/ socket nevers gets any warmer than the Dryer which can be on for 2/3 hours etc.

Veteransaver

mikrt said:

Won't get into granny charger argument. It will only cause a lot of flames.

It isn't an argument though, it is money saving.

 But it IS an argument though. On safety grounds, not financial. They are not recommended for anything other than occasional use. 

There seems to be far more instances of badly installed 7kW "proper" chargers causing serious damage compared to 2.2kW granny chargers.
A 32A chargepoint can really highlight unseen weaknesses with a home electric supply, it's far more than most homes use except for in short bursts at peak times
A 10A/2.2kW granny charger worst I've seen is some scorched sockets. Apart from the tiny PEN fault risk (there's about 400 localised events per year in UK and chances of someone touching a plugged in vehicle and being earthed enough IE bare feet on wet grass etc to be killed is so remote it's barely even worth considering) I'm not convinced 7kW proper chargers are in anyway safer.

Jenni_D

Grumpy_chap said:

Ectophile said:

Car_54 said:

mikrt said:

Won't get into granny charger argument. It will only cause a lot of flames.

It isn't an argument though, it is money saving.

 But it IS an argument though. On safety grounds, not financial. They are not recommended for anything other than occasional use. 

I'm no expert, but that seems highly dubious.

Electrical systems and equipment are either safe (to within legal standards) or they are not. Does "occasional use" mean that - occasionally - the user may be electrocuted, or his house burned down? Or what?

It's more about the plug and socket overheating.  An "granny lead" will draw about 10A from a socket.  A modern car might take 20 hours to charge.

It's rather different from plugging in a kettle that may draw 13A but only for a few minutes.

If it's a brand new socket from a reputable maker, it should be fine.  If it's old and a bit worn, or if the socket was made in China from the cheapest materials, then the socket could cook.  Ideally, you should use a special "EV rated" socket. These have good solid brass contacts, of the sort that every socket should really have but it adds a few pence to the manufacturing cost.

How does a car drawing 10 A for an extended period vary from an electric heater also drawing 3kW power for an extended period?

A 3kW heater draws a high current for a short period, and then cycles on/off to maintain the set temperature. An EV draws the 10A (or whatever) as a constant draw for an extended period (10+ hours depending on the charge being added). So they're not directly comparable.

lordmountararat

I have a looped electricity supply and an awkward landlord, so I have to use a granny charger. It is possible to limit the current drawn, either through the car's software or a switch on the granny box. I limit mine to 8 amps and neither the plug nor the socket ever get remotely warm. It does take a while to charge the car, and I would never do it without being at home, but charging like this about two or three times a month is fine, according to an electrician I asked. He said the charge was drawing less than a tumble dryer.

Ectophile

flaneurs_lobster said:

Read over the screeds of complicated descriptions, explanations, diagrams of different plugs'n'sockets, handy hints on where to stop for an hour or so while you charge, warnings about the wrong sort of electricity, topped off with a bit of mild bigotry about Travellers.

Then see OP's throwaway about "topping up with £20's worth of petrol". 

Still want an EV?

Things are getting simpler regarding plugs and sockets.  Unless you buy a tiny city runaround (the sort of vehicle that is classed as a quadricycle) or a Nissan Leaf, it will come with a combined Type2/CCS socket.  Which covers pretty much any charger you are likely to see.

If you don't want to wait an hour charging, buy a car with ultra-rapid charging.  That's pretty much standard on new models.

You need to check what you're getting if buying an older vehicle, though.  But you only need to check once, before buying the car!

As for topping up with £20 worth of petrol... I did some back-of-an-envelope calculations.  I simply can't put £20 of electricity into my Zoe using my home charger, even charging from flat to full.  It has a 50kWh battery.  Assume charging is 80% efficient, that's 62.5kWh of electricity.  Using standard rate electricity - no fancy EV tariff - that's about £16.

WellKnownSid

Ectophile said:

As for topping up with £20 worth of petrol... I did some back-of-an-envelope calculations.  I simply can't put £20 of electricity into my Zoe using my home charger, even charging from flat to full.  It has a 50kWh battery.  Assume charging is 80% efficient, that's 62.5kWh of electricity.  Using standard rate electricity - no fancy EV tariff - that's about £16.

£4.19 on our fancy EV tariff

WellKnownSid

FarmerHorse said:

If you wrote a post describing in detail how to fill an ICE car with fuel avoiding mis-fuelling, price differentials at different sites and the ways to pay it would be just as easy to make a post as long as that one. 

There are essentially two types of fuel - one called Petrol, the other called Diesel.  You can easily tell which type you need by looking at the dashboard when you turn the car on but before you start the engine.  If you see a yellow symbol like this light up for a few seconds, you'll know that your car needs diesel.



When you need to 'fill up' - head on over to a 'filling station' as they are called.  They often advertise the price of fuel on a sign on the outside.

You'll usually find a series of pumps - usually they will have one, two or three nozzles on each side so cars can park on the side where their filler cap is.  Some cars tell you which side the filler cap is on with an arrow:



Some pumps have extra long hoses which allow you to reach to the other side.  Sometimes this is marked by a sign which says 'extra long hoses' or 'use either side for refuelling'.

Depending on your car, extra long hoses and pumps which are designed to be used by either side may not actually be long enough to be used by either side.  You will find this out by trial and error.  Sometimes you can adjust the position of your car to be closer by moving your car back and forth and turning the steering wheel.  If this is unsuccessful - simply reverse your car out of the space - turning on your hazard lights will help warn cars that you are in fact in the wrong bay and they will instinctively and politely move out of your way because we've all made this mistake and petrol station customers are always warm and friendly bunch of happy souls.

Once you get to your pump you'll have a range of choices.  Firstly payment - if it's a pay at pump machine you'll have to decide whether or not you want to pay at the pump.  If it isn't a pay at the pump machine you won't have to - you can just use it.  If you pay at pump, your life savings will be temporarily reserved until the transaction has been completed.  Some pumps are also fitted with buttons which let you dispense only a certain amount of fuel.  Simply press the buttons (£10 £1 etc) to edit the amount of fuel you want dispensed.

As stated, there will now be three or two (or perhaps one) nozzle to choose from.

If you see three nozzles they will usually be marked as diesel, unleaded and super-unleaded.  Unleaded is the name for Petrol.  Sometimes you will see two unleaded and one diesel. If you see two nozzles, they will generally be marked up for standard unleaded and standard diesel.  If you find a petrol pump with a single nozzle, there is a 50/50 chance you've parked at the wrong pump.  On larger sites and motorway service stations you'll often find four nozzles per side at a pump - diesel, super or "advanced" diesel, unleaded and super-unleaded.

Normal unleaded can also be known by it's bio-ethanol content of 10% - and so may be labelled as E10.  This is 95 octane.  Super unleaded, which is usually somewhere between 97 and 100 octane has up to 5% bioethanol so may be labelled as E5.  Diesel is also known by it's bio-diesel content of 7% and can be labelled as B7.  Advanced Diesel fuels will also be known as B7 because all diesel fuel contains the same 7% of bio-diesel whether it's standard or advanced, unlike Petrol (unleaded).  Octane ratings may be displayed on unleaded pumps, but cetane ratings are generally not mentioned on diesel pumps.

Most cars only care if they get Diesel or Petrol and don't care whether it's normal or advanced - but some do.  Most petrol cars built after 2000 are compatible with E10 Petrol, but some are not.  Some cars built before 2000 are also compatible with E10.



Filling the car
Open the flap of your car (press a button or just open the flap) and remove any inner cap.  This is usually achieved by turning the cap anti-clockwise - however some caps with integral locks need to have the key in and turned 90 degrees anti-clockwise first before the cap itself can be turned.

Carefully lift the correct nozzle!  If you choose the wrong type of fuel you could be landed with a £3,000 bill for repairs to your car.  

When lifting the nozzle remember not to squeeze the trigger - petrol is highly flammable and although diesel is not flammable it is very slippery and can create a slip hazard.

Carefully place the nozzle into the car and squeeze the trigger.  The cashier will now authorise your re-fuelling - something which can take up to a minute if they are serving pastries to the customers inside.  Once this has been authorised - your car will fill up automatically for as long as you are holding the trigger.  On the continent, petrol pumps are fitted with a latch to keep the pump pumping even if you let go.  These are designed for attendant service, and sometimes they forget to remove them in the UK and you can fill up hands-free.

When you have pumped sufficient fuel, you can release the trigger and the flow will stop.  You can then replace the nozzle into the pump, taking care not to spill any fuel.  If you want to fully brim your tank, the pump will automatically stop when the car is almost full.  You can then release the trigger and put some more fuel in - but don't repeat this more than once or you can overfill the car - and in some cars this can be another expensive mistake.

In some weather conditions you'll find that fuels behave differently.  Diesel fuels can foam and spill out of the top of the filler over your trousers.  Petrol expands significantly with temperature so you actually get less energy dispensed into your tank in Summer than you do in Winter.

Re-fitting your filler cap is the reverse of taking it off, it will usually 'click' into place once it's secure.  If you need a receipt and you've paid at the pump, there will usually be a button to press to print the receipt.

If you've not paid at the pump don't forget to pay at this point!

Supermarket vs branded filling stations
Unlike electricity, supermarket fuels can be very different to the premium products you get at branded filling stations.  Whilst they all come from the same refineries, they will have different additives (snake oil) added to them.  A similar situation can be found in the drinks industry:



I hope you found this guide useful!

Car_54

LightFlare said:

Car_54 said:

LightFlare said:

Ectophile said:

Car_54 said:

mikrt said:

Won't get into granny charger argument. It will only cause a lot of flames.

It isn't an argument though, it is money saving.

 But it IS an argument though. On safety grounds, not financial. They are not recommended for anything other than occasional use. 

I'm no expert, but that seems highly dubious.

Electrical systems and equipment are either safe (to within legal standards) or they are not. Does "occasional use" mean that - occasionally - the user may be electrocuted, or his house burned down? Or what?

It's more about the plug and socket overheating.  An "granny lead" will draw about 10A from a socket.  A modern car might take 20 hours to charge.

It's rather different from plugging in a kettle that may draw 13A but only for a few minutes.

If it's a brand new socket from a reputable maker, it should be fine.  If it's old and a bit worn, or if the socket was made in China from the cheapest materials, then the socket could cook.  Ideally, you should use a special "EV rated" socket. These have good solid brass contacts, of the sort that every socket should really have but it adds a few pence to the manufacturing cost.

likely the car will also fall into this category

Have you any evidence to support the idea that Chinese cars are somehow sub-standard?

Are you perhaps nostalgic for the good old days of British Leyland quality?

Wasn’t actually what I quoted - more that they are (probably) made from cheap materials 

By "cheap" I guess you mean inferior?

The idea that all Chinese goods are second-rate copies is long out of date.

We already import vast quantities of goods from China - largely bearing respected Japanese, European or American brand names  There is no evidence AFAIK that they are in any way poorer than the equivalent products made elsewhere. In fact some (e.g. Apple iPhones) are regarded as premium quality.

Why should their cars be any different?

henry24

WellKnownSid you've done a brilliant job explaining in one post how to fuel a car up compared to others explaining how to charge a EV needing four pages