Openreach cannot install Fibre Broadband as neighbour refusing to give permission to work

smipsy

Hi all,

Bit of a convoluted situation here and I'm open for any suggestions / advice!

I ordered Full Fibre broadband from Vodafone early December and it was supposed to be installed on 23rd of December. Engineer attended, but identified there is a blockage in the pipes carrying the cables, etc, so this will need to get rectified.

Since then Vodafone have been delaying my order several times whilst they wait for Openreach to complete these works. Vodafone have stated they are still waiting to receive a "Permission to work" from a third party, but due to data protection they cannot say whether that third party is a neighbour, local authority or someone else.

However, Openreach have already told me which neighbour it is, and that they have tried to speak to them several times, but they are not giving them the permission to work, as the access to the blockage is in the front garden of their house.

Vodafone themselves have told me I am eligible for daily compensation up to 60 days for every day since 23rd of December, but have recently tried to retract this by stating because they cannot get permission to complete the works, I would not be eligible as the order would have to be cancelled.

I have also been billed twice by Vodafone for a service I don't yet have, which they stated was an "admin error". When I have asked for all this in writing, suddenly I received confirmation from a manager that I am in fact eligible for compensation, even if they end up having to cancel my order. Funny that!

Now when it comes to Openreach and this permission to work, are Openreach truly helpless here if the neighbour does not want to work with them? I would just like to know what my options are here as the order will soon get cancelled as it will be 60 days since the original day the service should have gone live.

I don't want to get involved with the neighbour in question, primarily because they have a right to refuse works in their garden, and I don't particularly blame them for that. But I would like to have access to FFTP broadband like the rest of my street does!

Does anyone know if Openreach have any legal powers to enforce this work to be done? I have tried Googling this, but it was a minefield of different opinions which got me nowhere.

The only other option I would have here is Virgin Media, which I would like to avoid, but at least I know they were previously able to supply broadband here.

Openreach are trying once more to get this permission to work, with the final date being in mid-February at which point they are saying they will give up.

Vodafone have not been interested in providing any interim solution, aside from saying I can just get some mobile broadband instead, but they wouldn't supply it whilst this is getting resolved. This seems to go against Ofcom guidance which seems to state that the provider should be working with me to provide an alternative solution.

If anyone has ever been in this kind of situation and/or has any advice to offer, I would be grateful!

Thanks

pramsay13

We have a pole in our back garden and as far as I understand although they ask nicely each time in theory they would be able to access it even if refused permission but I assume they would try and avoid that at all costs. 
Apparently there is someone near here that is refusing access to open reach and has padlocked their gate. Instead of fighting with him they are just talking the lines from the next pole along. 

smipsy

My problem is that there are no poles anywhere on the street. The cabinet is more or less in front of my house, however the piping / cabling goes partly under the pavement and partly through the neighbours front garden before it goes onto my property. As far as I can see, there are no poles anywhere that they could use as an alternative, they can only pull the cable through if they fix the blockage, which the neighbour is unfortunately refusing.

Grumpy_chap

OpenReach will be able to do this using their statutory powers.  It will require them to serve notice and wait the necessary period (which does include a right of appeal for the landowner) plus compensation to the landowner for any damage caused and / or devaluation of the land by virtue of the asset installed.  The ways to avoid the notice period are:
 - emergency 
 - early access agreement

Where there is an existing asset, there will be no compensation for devalue the land, but compensation for digging up some treasured rose may be a discussion point.

The emergency access does not sound like it will apply here.

An early access agreement really means just asking the landowner, or paying the landowner if requested.  Maybe the landowner was too greedy in asking for payment for early access so OpenReach are just going to serve notice and do the job when the timelines are exhausted.

35har1old

smipsy said:

My problem is that there are no poles anywhere on the street. The cabinet is more or less in front of my house, however the piping / cabling goes partly under the pavement and partly through the neighbours front garden before it goes onto my property. As far as I can see, there are no poles anywhere that they could use as an alternative, they can only pull the cable through if they fix the blockage, which the neighbour is unfortunately refusing.

Had Openreach install full fibre broadband no blockage in duct but existing telephone socket was in a unsuitable position they excavated and rerouted to my chosen position all on the ageed day.
Not all properties that are supplied underground would have ducting installed to the premises.
 I think they should be looking to excavate a new route to your premise.
Is the existing master socket in a usable position with a electric supply adjacent to supply the fibre and router
The cabinet you mention are you sure it is a green BT firbe cabinet as most fibre connections are made in underground chambers 

iniltous

It’s unusual for a duct feeding your property to be in another persons garden , there can be situations where a ‘service strip’ rather than a proper footpath was provided by the developer,  to benefit the ‘street scene’ , it’s purely aesthetic device to improve the look of an area ,  this can be especially prevalent in the head of  cul-de-sacs built in the 1990 and onwards , basically the front garden borders directly with the road , approximately the last metre of garden  ( where a footpath would normally be ) is the service strip and  utilities , gas ,water  , electricity, communications exist under that area , the problem is after many years of the householder maintaining this area as part of their front garden , it effectively becomes a part of the property so should excavation be needed  , if it were a proper footpath there would be no issue , a householder can’t complain of a footpath being excavated outside their house , but in a service strip is  a grey area , and basically if the householder won’t allow any work in the service strip, that’s pretty much it …is this anything like your situation  ?

As stated OR could apply for a compulsory wayleave but that’s a very rare occurrence, it’s more likely they will simply indicate that the address is problematic, and not take any further orders for that address once the VF order is cancelled , presumably you have FTTC access already so any universal service obligation is already met , so it’s not like you have no alternative, so I doubt OR will  ever take the legal route .

If you know the address that’s refusing permission to dig , are they being reasonable, if they had a imprinted concrete driveway, or resin bonded driveway that had to be interfered with , excavation will leave scars , so it’s understandable they would refuse, but if it’s only grass , block paving or any surface that can easily be reinstated without any witness marks being left afterwards, that’s IMHO unreasonable, perhaps having a friendly word , pointing out it’s affecting you , and especially if it a service strip it’s not technically their property anyway , may help 

Eldi_Dos

If it is a existing duct route with operational cables in it they will have a right to carry out repairs, which they would do if existing cables needed replaced.
I would get in touch with the Plant Protection Officer for your area and get them involved.

35har1old

iniltous said:

It’s unusual for a duct feeding your property to be in another persons garden , there can be situations where a ‘service strip’ rather than a proper footpath was provided by the developer,  to benefit the ‘street scene’ , it’s purely aesthetic device to improve the look of an area ,  this can be especially prevalent in the head of  cul-de-sacs built in the 1990 and onwards , basically the front garden borders directly with the road , approximately the last metre of garden  ( where a footpath would normally be ) is the service strip and  utilities , gas ,water  , electricity, communications exist under that area , the problem is after many years of the householder maintaining this area as part of their front garden , it effectively becomes a part of the property so should excavation be needed  , if it were a proper footpath there would be no issue , a householder can’t complain of a footpath being excavated outside their house , but in a service strip is  a grey area , and basically if the householder won’t allow any work in the service strip, that’s pretty much it …is this anything like your situation  ?

As stated OR could apply for a compulsory wayleave but that’s a very rare occurrence, it’s more likely they will simply indicate that the address is problematic, and not take any further orders for that address once the VF order is cancelled , presumably you have FTTC access already so any universal service obligation is already met , so it’s not like you have no alternative, so I doubt OR will  ever take the legal route .

If you know the address that’s refusing permission to dig , are they being reasonable, if they had a imprinted concrete driveway, or resin bonded driveway that had to be interfered with , excavation will leave scars , so it’s understandable they would refuse, but if it’s only grass , block paving or any surface that can easily be reinstated without any witness marks being left afterwards, that’s IMHO unreasonable, perhaps having a friendly word , pointing out it’s affecting you , and especially if it a service strip it’s not technically their property anyway , may help 

Highway authority have control of service stripes 
 Service  stripes 2M wide and utilities have the right to excavate to make repairs but not to upgrade. 
If a mains electric cable developed a fault would you except them to just walk away.  Surface type makes no difference.
Block paving after a number years impossible to match when replacing broken paviors 
Given that there could be at least six utilities which should have spacing of 300mm 2M is barely enough especially if there is a telephone chamber installed. In theory telephone ducting should be adjacent to road edge.

35har1old

iniltous said:

It’s unusual for a duct feeding your property to be in another persons garden , there can be situations where a ‘service strip’ rather than a proper footpath was provided by the developer,  to benefit the ‘street scene’ , it’s purely aesthetic device to improve the look of an area ,  this can be especially prevalent in the head of  cul-de-sacs built in the 1990 and onwards , basically the front garden borders directly with the road , approximately the last metre of garden  ( where a footpath would normally be ) is the service strip and  utilities , gas ,water  , electricity, communications exist under that area , the problem is after many years of the householder maintaining this area as part of their front garden , it effectively becomes a part of the property so should excavation be needed  , if it were a proper footpath there would be no issue , a householder can’t complain of a footpath being excavated outside their house , but in a service strip is  a grey area , and basically if the householder won’t allow any work in the service strip, that’s pretty much it …is this anything like your situation  ?

As stated OR could apply for a compulsory wayleave but that’s a very rare occurrence, it’s more likely they will simply indicate that the address is problematic, and not take any further orders for that address once the VF order is cancelled , presumably you have FTTC access already so any universal service obligation is already met , so it’s not like you have no alternative, so I doubt OR will  ever take the legal route .

If you know the address that’s refusing permission to dig , are they being reasonable, if they had a imprinted concrete driveway, or resin bonded driveway that had to be interfered with , excavation will leave scars , so it’s understandable they would refuse, but if it’s only grass , block paving or any surface that can easily be reinstated without any witness marks being left afterwards, that’s IMHO unreasonable, perhaps having a friendly word , pointing out it’s affecting you , and especially if it a service strip it’s not technically their property anyway , may help 

As the aim is to have everybody switched to full fibre by 2027 the universal service won't be met and as the future viewing of tv signals will require a faster speed with the possibility of the masts being decommissioned sometime after 2034

QrizB

35har1old said:

As the aim is to have everybody switched to full fibre by 2027 the universal service won't be met and as the future viewing of tv signals will require a faster speed with the possibility of the masts being decommissioned sometime after 2034

An entire DVB-T multiplex tops out at about 30Mbps. That's towards the slower end of FTTC. A single channel is more like 4Mbps. "Viewing of TV signals" does not require VDSL, let alone FTTP.

smipsy

Just in case if it is relevant for anything, this is the overview of the line from BT Wholesale checker

Featured Products	Downstream Line Rate(Mbps)		Upstream Line Rate (Mbps)		Downstream Handback Threshold(Mbps)	WBC FTTC Availability	WBC SOGEA Availability
	High	Low	High	Low
VDSL Range A (Clean)	56.1	40	9.2	6.5	35	Unavailable	Exception
VDSL Range B (Impacted)	54.9	35	9.1	6	30	Unavailable	Exception
G.fast Range A (Clean)	--	--	--	--	--	Unavailable	--
G.fast Range B (Impacted)	--	--	--	--	--	Unavailable	--

Featured Products	Downstream Line Rate(Mbps)	Upstream Line Rate (Mbps)	Downstream Range (Mbps)	Availability Date	FTTP Install Process
WBC FTTP	Up to 1000	Up to 220	--	Available	1 Stage

Other Offerings	Availability Date
VDSL Multicast	Available

Exchange Product Restrictions	Status
FTTP Priority Exchange	Y
WLR Withdrawal	Y
SOADSL Restriction	N

Our records show the following FTTP network service information for these premises:-Single Dwelling Unit Residential UG premises served by 2.5 Inch plastic duct 56.

FTTP is available and a new ONT may be ordered.

As a fibre priority exchange, FTTP has priority over other products if available at the address

As a WLR withdrawal exchange, product restrictions apply

SOADSL is not restricted at the exchange

For all ADSL and WBC Fibre to the Cabinet (VDSL or G.fast) services, the stable line rate will be determined during the first 10 days of service usage.

For all SOADSL services,the stable line rate will be determined during the first 10 days of service usage.

This site is in an FTTP priority area where FTTP is available but exceptionally SOGEA will also show as available to order but only at Non-Standard Premises (NSP) such as Hot site, Uninhabitable and Temporary locations. Migrations of WLR Solus (voice-only lines) is also allowed but only for SOGEA 0.5Mbps bandwidths. SOGEA 40/10 bandwidths order is also allowed.

Actual speeds experienced by end users and quoted by CPs will be lower due to a number of factors within and external to BT's network, Communication Providers' networks and within customer premises.

In order to be eligible for handback, downstream speed should be less than Downstream Handback Threshold values.

If you decide to place an order for a WBC fibre product, an appointment may be required for an engineer to visit the end user's premises to supply the service

ADSL, ADSL2+ and SOADSL availability: If shown at FTTP or SOGEA premises,ADSL, ADSL2+ and SOADSL are not available to order due to WLR Withdrawal stop sell rules. CPs should order FTTP or SOGEA. Copper products are only available by exception.