Economy 10 timings and move to smart metering (Merged)

simfrend

Thanks...I get the point that the thermostat should in theory limit energy consumption both by setting the upper temperature and by switching off the supply once at temperature.

However, I assume that once fully charged/hot there will inevitably be additional/excess energy consumption after this point (if still supplied) in order to keep them at this upper temperature because they will inevitably be emitting/losing heat the whole time. So if the heaters take 5 or 6 hours to reach full temperature, they will be cooling and topping up to some extent for a further 5 or 6 hours during the week and constantly cooling/topping up for 34 hours across the weekend.

Have I got this wrong?

simfrend

That's really helpful thanks and sorry I seem to be posting across two threads.

The heaters are Dimplex XLSN (photo in other thread) and have a vent control but are quite basic otherwise...no fan etc.  So if they're designed to fully charge in 6 or 7 hours and in theory to heat for 24hrs, under what circumstances would it make sense to have a tariff/meter that switched them on for 11 hours every week night and for 42 hours straight on the weekend...thermostat or not?

I can't reconcile the timings with having storage heaters and can't find any similar Tariff/timings and feel that a mistake has been made somewhere. Octopus insist that the timings provided are correct and were programmed to the meter when it was installed and can't be altered...except by changing to a smart eco7 meter.

QrizB

simfrend said:

Have I got this wrong?

You're kinda correct, but cooling and topping up - on other words, heating your house - is what they're designed to do.

Imagine your house needs a constant 1kW to keep it at your chosen temperature. You could run a heater continuously at 1kW and you'd use 24kWh in a day.

Or you could charge a storage heater at 3kW for 8 hours, and have it release that heat gradually over the course of the next 16 hours. That's 24kWh too.

The only way you'll use less energy is by having a colder house. And a colder house might be your intention, but you could just as easily achieve this by turning down the temperature on the storage heaters rather than switching the power on and off.

(One caveat would be of the storage heaters are broken and the thermostat isn't working. If this was true, your house would be overheating and the only way to reduce the temperature would be by switching the heatera on and off. But in those circumstances you'd be hassling your landlord to get the heaters fixed.)

QrizB

simfrend said:

. Octopus insist that the timings provided are correct and were programmed to the meter when it was installed and can't be altered...except by changing to a smart eco7 meter.

For all practical purposes Octopus are correct. No-one makes or installs RTS meters any more, and they're all due for replacement with smart meters.

Is there any reason why you don't want to let them replace it? It's their property, after all, and their responsibility, and you (& your landlord) have agreed to let them fit & replace their meters as part of the T&C for having an electricity supply.

simfrend

Thanks for the explanation.

Agreed my terminology is a bit naive! I see your point about the purpose being to heat the home, so the cooling of the heater is transferring the heat to the environment...

However, I still think the questions are valid... If the heaters are designed specifically to heat to a desired capacity, usually in around 6 hours say and then to give out that heat gradually over the next 18 hours (perhaps with a top up or not in the afternoon) whilst essentially off, why would there be timings in place to have the heaters on for 14 hours every weekday and for 42 hours straight on the weekend? Surely that's not efficient? Even with the thermostat set at lowest, I imagine that there would be excess heating especially on the weekend.

What I'm really questioning is why are these particular timings in place and is there possibly a mistake here...so far I've not seen details of any existing or legacy tariff that's even close...

Of course you are right to say that we should hassle the landlord to ensure that all of the thermostats are operating correctly...obviously not all of them have their original dials...is the internal thermostat serviceable and do they ever play up?

simfrend

We don't have an issue with moving from the obsolete RTS meter to a smart meter or to a different tariff, or indeed to different timings....this might well be of benefit given that I think there has been excess energy usage because of the timings of the heater circuit.

What's holding things up is that we have been seeking an explanation of these timings since 2022 without success and along the way Octopus have contradicted themselves repeatedly, alternating between the meter DOES control the heating circuit and the meter DOES NOT control the heater circuit and we can fit a an ECO10 meter with the existing timings and we can only fit an ECO7 meter.

We would like to have some clarity and sufficient information to make a comparison/informed decision about what to do going forward and some verification that there was not a mistake in the past.

Spoonie_Turtle

simfrend said:

What I'm really questioning is why are these particular timings in place and is there possibly a mistake here...so far I've not seen details of any existing or legacy tariff that's even close...

I could be misinterpreting this, my brain is working even less than usual today so I apologise if I am - but it seems you are thinking the tariff timings were put in place specifically for this individual property based on the heaters it has? 

The Scottish Power link gives a couple of different but not terribly dissimilar tariffs so although unusual, it's not without compare even today, let alone when the tariff would have been taken.

So isn't the simpler explanation possibly that whomever choose the tariff just thought 'great, loads of off-peak hours, that'll be cheapest' and went with that?  Not really caring that it's many more hours than the heaters actually need to keep the place warm is understandable, because that'd be silly reason to turn down cheap electricity.

Ildhund

simfrend said:

What we have been really trying to establish is if the timings that Octopus have quoted are a mistake or if they are really some old and strange tariff. 

There are clues in the data page you shared. The Meter Timeswitch Code is 605, which translates to a few different SSCs depending on who the supplier is and in which region. The SSC given is 605, which is registered to OVO (SOUT - which used to be SSE) in Southern England (GSP _H) and gives offpeak timings under TPR 01082 precisely as quoted. It's one of the original codes, dating back to 1996 when the system was set up (I think). TPRs over 00999 are used for RTS-type time patterns.

This is apparently an RTS meter (whose certification expired in 2022). I suppose that this means the timings are a framework within which the heating circuit can be activated, but with the precise switching times controlled by the radio signal to give - say - 10 hours of charge a day as decided by the DNO.

I've not seen that sort of data page before; I wish I knew how to get hold of one. If you have the page for the other MPAN, it would be interesting to see that, too. It should indicate the peak/offpeak timings unless it's configured for single rate.

An MPAN is in fact Personally Identifiable Information (PII), so you might want to consider obscuring it in the image you've already posted and the one I hope you're going to post. 

Just FYI, OVO's rates for this tariff are Peak: 28.79, Offpeak: 20.34 (that's the other meter in your case), Heating: 21.16 and SC 61.40, all p ex VAT.  Octopus look to be more generous, so long as the greater part of your consumption is for heating.

Scot_39

simfrend said:

Hi both,

Thanks for replies. Sorry, I wasn't really sure how the threads work I'm afraid.

The NSHs are pretty old with dials (where they haven't broken off) the property is rented. By thermostat, do you mean the "Automatic Input" dial?

What we have been really trying to establish is if the timings that Octopus have quoted are a mistake or if they are really some old and strange tariff. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

To add to the picture, in the year 2018/19 average daily energy use on the Heat only was 23kWh per day - this is before looking into any of this. By comparison, for the year 23-24 it is down to an average of 7.1kWh per day by manually switching the heaters on and off at the wall to restrict the number of hours they are on for.

Is that Input dial on max or min.

And is it actually working (looks a bit physically offset cf other dial) ?

On max my Unidare (WMS712/724 series) models would be pretty toasty.  And consume a lot of power.

Mines seldom go above 3 - half way - 5 on your input dial max if truly freezing day and night.  

Edit

But note I run a colder house than most - 16 / 14 C.  

But that's heating to that 3 times per day on my e10 timings.

On e7 I'd need to charge hotter to give same total kWh output over the day - but obviously with a peakier heat output.

Edit

As QrizB pointed out above or in your other thread - the electricity is heating your room.

If your warmer than you want to be (and importantly if for any reason medically required - need to be(*)) - then you could try turning them down - but otherwise they will use what they use to give you the desired room temps.

(*) My 16/14 for instance is far below NHS guidelines of 18-21C - I wouldn't recommend it for all of my age - let alone elderly / infirm etc.  But certainly bedroom wise - still a lot warmer than what I grew up with in harsher winters up North.

Edit 2

I sometimes set my LR deliberately low - as with E10 all my electricity use now goes off peak mid afternoon and mid evening slots (with RTS it was only the heaters / HW).  So I can heat using plugs ins to boost at off peak rates when required - if out parts of the day.  

Your twin RTS doesn't necessarily give you that - but if your getting e7 night for heating and extended off peak on other circuits as your timings might suggest - you might be able to work that too - to control costs.

But pretty soon - I suspect you'll be on the best smets2 option available in any case.

Snug - probably better tariff than vanilla single block e7 (off peak 7 hours all over night) - in that case - but check your rates and timing options first.

Scot_39

Clarity is key.

At least one poster here at my supplier (EOn Next) have had e10 meters replaced by e7 - despite verbal promises to the contrary.

So try to get answers in writing.

I have kept my e10 for my similar generation Unidare's (25+ years) - it was c4p more expensive off-peak /kWh than e7 at EOn when checked about a year ago - but then I don't have to worry about the risk of using plug ins at day rate late evening / night time - or over heat in the mornings - so that the heat lasts to the evenings.

I had thought about switching to EDF at one stage to get e10 with them - but now they too have dropped their customer facing complex metering special team - not sure I'd be as happy to do so.

My possible future strategy if threatened with a smets2 on e7 config - is Snug Octopus - with - at least in Dec in EM region - it's 9p night rates - at least they give a 1 hr afternoon boost - that might be a good compromise vs vanilla e7.

Cosy is a better fit to the numer of off peak hours - but its ASHP / boiler only - not a ALCS NSH dedciated tariff. Before SNUG I was tempted to phone them and ask if could get it with ALCS configured metering.

But now that Ovo are reportedly fitting e10 configured meters - maybe others having to deal with RTS / legacy might be doing similar - for their legacy customers (so might be more willing to do so for others). Maybe I'll check out their rates too - and whether they would support e10 permanently.