Economy 10 timings and move to smart metering (Merged)

simfrend

Hi all,

Not sure if my original post was in the best thread, so I am posting to a new one... 

I need to know if the 'Eco 10' heater timings that we have been given by Octopus look as crazy as I think they are, to those with some experience. 

Background: We have an RTS telemeter, two MPANS and three readings, supplying what used to be known as ECO10. We have storage heaters. The current supplier is Octopus and they have us on Octopus Flex tariff with two standing charges.

Octopus have provided us with and confirmed the following timings:

  Off peak, weekdays 19.30 - 07.30hrs and Sat/Sun 00.00 - 24.00hrs

  Heating Off Peak, weekdays 00.00 - 07.00, 13.00 - 16.00, 20.00 - 24.00, Saturday 13.00 - 24.00 and Sunday 00.00 - 24.00

These timings look completely out of whack with any comparable timings that I have seen and since the meter controls the timing and switching of the storage heaters, the energy input seems extremely excessive. eg. The heating circuit (and therefore storage heaters) is energised for 42 hours constantly over the weekend. Octopus insist that the timings are correct and were passed to them by the previous supplier and refuse to investigate further.

Could anyone with experience of typical ECO10 timings confirm if these timings are as unusual as we think they are and what we should do to challenge this further if so?

Thanks in advance

simfrend

Hi all,

Not sure if this is the best place to post my query but here goes...

Background: We have an RTS telemeter, two MPANS and three readings, supplying what used to be known as ECO10. We have storage heaters. The current supplier is Octopus and they have us on Octopus Flex tariff.

Octopus have provided us with and confirmed the following timings:

  Off peak, weekdays 19.30 - 07.30hrs and Sat/Sun 00.00 - 24.00hrs

  Heating Off Peak, weekdays 00.00 - 07.00, 13.00 - 16.00, 20.00 - 24.00, Saturday 13.00 - 24.00 and Sunday 00.00 - 24.00

These timings look completely out of whack with any other comparable timings that I have seen and since the meter controls the timing and switching of the storage heaters, the energy input seems extremely excessive. Octopus insist that the timings are correct and were passed to them by the previous supplier and refuse to investigate further.

Could anyone with experience of typical ECO10 timings confirm if these timings are as unusual as we think they are and what we should do to challenge this further if so?

Swipe

worlestone said:

We've moved to Octopus Snug and found that the off peak is actually 23:00 - 06:30/07:00 (sometimes there's an extra half hour!) and again between 15:00 and 16:00, the afternoon boost is very welcome

On your bill, do you get charged for off peak usage according to units used on the off peak R2 register or the smart meter 30 min blocks?

PZ19

I am on E10 with EDF, Eastern region, their off peak rate a year so ago was insanely cheap but they doubled that..  current tariff is 30.944p Day and 14.154 night and off peak.  Standing Charge 51.251p per day.   I have 2 meters, one day/night and one for heating and water only.  The cheaper off peak rates only apply to the water and heating in my case, not anything else, unlike what another poster above said  about washing and cooking their lunch.  

EDF used to have a separate complex metering team but seemed to have got rid of that last year and now you’re in with everyone else calling the customer service helpline with any questions.   Not that I ever really have the need to.  Their app is easy to use though and bills produced very quickly once readings given.   I have 20+ year old storage heaters that still produce a decent amount of heat, probably should replace them at some point but cost isn’t worth it to be honest

in answer to simfriend my 10 hours are 0100-0700, 1400-1630, 2200-2330.  Night is 0200-0730.  Day is 0730-0200

simfrend

Hi PZ19,

Thanks for the info, that's helpful.

In case it's not obvious from my post, I'm most interested in the number of Off Peak Heating hours because the heaters are switched on by the meter. We had understood that ECO10 is roughly 10 hours of off peak, like yours but ours amount to 14 hours per day weekdays and 24 hours per day weekends!

What this means, for instance, is that the storage heaters in theory switch on at 1pm on Saturday and don't switch off again until 7am on Monday morning ie. 42 hours constant! Surely that's not right?

Rosie1001

PZ19 said:

I am on E10 with EDF, Eastern region, their off peak rate a year so ago was insanely cheap but they doubled that..  current tariff is 30.944p Day and 14.154 night and off peak.  Standing Charge 51.251p per day.   I have 2 meters, one day/night and one for heating and water only.  The cheaper off peak rates only apply to the water and heating in my case, not anything else, unlike what another poster above said  about washing and cooking their lunch.  

EDF used to have a separate complex metering team but seemed to have got rid of that last year and now you’re in with everyone else calling the customer service helpline with any questions.   Not that I ever really have the need to.  Their app is easy to use though and bills produced very quickly once readings given.   I have 20+ year old storage heaters that still produce a decent amount of heat, probably should replace them at some point but cost isn’t worth it to be honest

in answer to simfriend my 10 hours are 0100-0700, 1400-1630, 2200-2330.  Night is 0200-0730.  Day is 0730-0200

complex metering team were fantastic now I’m struggling to get any answers from customer services as stated, I need a smart meter , but they can’t match my hours I get now ( no afternoon boost ) 

Scot_39

simfrend said:

Hi all,

Not sure if this is the best place to post my query but here goes...

Background: We have an RTS telemeter, two MPANS and three readings, supplying what used to be known as ECO10. We have storage heaters. The current supplier is Octopus and they have us on Octopus Flex tariff.

Octopus have provided us with and confirmed the following timings:

  Off peak, weekdays 19.30 - 07.30hrs and Sat/Sun 00.00 - 24.00hrs

  Heating Off Peak, weekdays 00.00 - 07.00, 13.00 - 16.00, 20.00 - 24.00, Saturday 13.00 - 24.00 and Sunday 00.00 - 24.00

These timings look completely out of whack with any other comparable timings that I have seen and since the meter controls the timing and switching of the storage heaters, the energy input seems extremely excessive. Octopus insist that the timings are correct and were passed to them by the previous supplier and refuse to investigate further.

Could anyone with experience of typical ECO10 timings confirm if these timings are as unusual as we think they are and what we should do to challenge this further if so?

My economy 10 - is a direct mapping of the times on my old EMEB Heatwise RTS system times - which are GMT 12 midnight-05:00am, 13:00-16:00pm and 20:00-22:00pm.

Standard modern economy 10 is AFAIK just that - a 10 hours off peak variant of economy 7 - often split 3x per day - and normally 2 rate / 2 circuits / single meter.

You appear to be on a legacy three circuit / three rate / twin meter setup.

I have had both digital and smart meter doing my economy 10 - and Ovo appear to be rolling out new e10 configured meters to their old e10 / rts and now thtc customers (who might be losing their weather dependent variable off peak times)

As to your situatoin - Octopus have been known to accept customers on legacy meters / timings in the past - on their old meters - without altering them - but not sure any posters said what happened when their old meters replaced.

I can only remember a few posts - and cannot remember the rates details - but for a standard e10 meter - I think one suggested was being giving standard e7 rates for the two registers. If their giving you standard flexible economy 7 off peak rates for off peak / heating - at those extended hours - it might not be so bad. 

If you have old NSH - it might work well if you turn the input "charge" dial down - so charge repeatedly to a lower temperature - to control energy use.  Right now I am only using 2 of my 3 heaters and on less than quarter on main charge dials - one nearer min - despite only medium to high single figures out.

It's how I run my NSH with e10 - right now they charge briefly for maybe 0.5-1hr in each of my three slots totalling 10 hrs. to heat modestly/  Modern HHRs of course adapt charge to demand. Higher settings / longer in each period - when sub zero out.

I never run them at their highest settings - despite that being the leaflet instruction - rarely half way - when in a real sub zero cold snap - day and night.

But you might have to get secondary high current timers or a seperate controlled master contactor fitted on the feed for your heating CU - if you want to restrict the times.

I am not aware of a tariff that matches those hours - but there were literally dozens across suppliers.

EDF Eco 20:20 was iirc a 2 rate variation on e10 - 10 hrs overnight and all weekend.

SP had secondary heater only off peak C - again 24 hrs at weekend - but different during the weak - and you needed a seperate tariff for the normal meter.

But Ovo still list tariffs for variants that are not obviously a match to the likes of Flexiheat three rate they inherited from SSE.  But i cannot see timing details only tariff rates as their not current offers.  And from their forum - Ovo are now busily rolling out E10 10 hr / three off peak period meters to replace RTS THTC meters and their old economy 10 meters. 

But struggling to find one that matches your three rates and timings exactly from a quick google..

And would be surprised if Octopus has done anything to change your old meter timings.

simfrend said:

Hi PZ19,

Thanks for the info, that's helpful.

In case it's not obvious from my post, I'm most interested in the number of Off Peak Heating hours because the heaters are switched on by the meter. We had understood that ECO10 is roughly 10 hours of off peak, like yours but ours amount to 14 hours per day weekdays and 24 hours per day weekends!

What this means, for instance, is that the storage heaters in theory switch on at 1pm on Saturday and don't switch off again until 7am on Monday morning ie. 42 hours constant! Surely that's not right?

 

Yes - but thats just on at the mains - doesn't mean they are continuously drawing power - because the heaters generally have their own thermostats.

I believe eco 20:20 - as listed above - from edf for instance gives off peak from Fri night to Mon morning.  Not sure if it does the restriced circuit though.

My heaters are powered on by meter for 10 hrs - last few days - the thermostat input control restricted that to 1.5 hrs charging.

simfrend

Hi Scot,

Thanks for your help.

This was an SSE setup originally I believe, the property being in Bournemouth.

My central question is really, is it possible that these timings are actually a mistake along the way somewhere?

I understand that the NSHs will have a thermostat but surely this would mean that they would be on and constantly topping up, whilst leaking heat, across the 42 hours that they're constantly on over the weekend and for 11 hours straight every week night?

Does the data sheet (now below)  help?

simfrend

That's just the MPAN and timings for the heater circuit...

QrizB

I dont think your current etariff is Economy 10. E10 is a two-rate tariff with then hours of cheap electricity a day, typically in three blocks of 4/3/3 hours.

What you're describing is a three-rate complex tariff - separate rates for peak, offpeak and heat - with different weekday and weekend timings. It's not Scottish Power Economy 2000 or Off peak C but it's similar to them (link).

Can you confirm that you do get heat for the hours mentioned? If there's a neon indicator on your storage heaters, or on the fused connection unit that powers then, it should light up when the supply is live.

Which electricity region are you in? There's a map at the link I've provided above. That might help us work out who the original supplier was and what tariff your meter was originally intended for.

simfrend

Hi, 
Thanks for your input...Yes its three rates Peak, Off Peak and Heat. One meter with two MPANS for which they charge two standing charges.

I can't really confirm that we actually get heat for all of the hours noted...there's no indicator on the NSH which are quite old and or on the fused connector. We asked Octopus to look into that very question but they refused.

Here is the details of the MPAN that supplies the Heat rate: