Economy 10 timings and move to smart metering (Merged)

Scot_39

I understand that the NSHs will have a thermostat but surely this would mean that they would be on and constantly topping up, whilst leaking heat, across the 42 hours that they're constantly on over the weekend and for 11 hours straight every week night?

To some extent yes - but depends on how controllable / well insulated your heaters are.

Just as it would with GCH - in some peoples settings - the boiler comes on / off during the night - others allow the temperature to drop overnight or out for several hours - before they switch back on.

The difference is the NSH has to hold the charge - and hence - they radiate some heat - even if nowhere near the max.

And they don't have similar power as a rule - my biggest NSH is rated just 1kW max on output - the Quantum HHR with fan assist - is 1.5kW - but cannot take on board 36kWh (7x3.3 = 23.1 kWh charge limit on e7 - if ever take full 7 hours)  to do that continuously - without the 1kW boost heater - at peak rate.

The radiators in my parents living room and dining rooms are rated 3 kW - 2x 3x that level - and the gas boiler if required can supply that power 24.7 - not just 7.7 if it really had to.

By default on modern e7 - NSH are designed / rated and so sized to cope with charging for upto 7 hours - but heating over 24 - or at least say 17 - like 7am to midnight - 17 hrs - before start topping up again from days energy release.

Interim generations had vent controls to change air flow so increase effective power when required, some timed based on last charge, some thermostatic, some had fans, some are hybrid models - they have secondary heaters built in etc.

More modern lot 20 and HHR tend to be progressively less linear in delivery (e.g. fan assisted) / and HHRs less leaky still  - thermostatically programmable on own timers etc - to better control output etc.

QrizB

I've seen from the E10 thread that you're in Southern region, so you should have an ex-SSE tariff. Sadly I can't find one that quite matches from OVO's list (OVO took over SSE's domestic users a couple of years ago):

https://www.ovoenergy.com/help/article/electric-heating/three-rate-tariffs

The closest is Flexiheat, but you've got too many weekday off-peak hours.

simfrend said:

I can't really confirm that we actually get heat for all of the hours noted...there's no indicator on the NSH which are quite old and or on the fused connector. We asked Octopus to look into that very question but they refused.

Octopus have no way to check without sending an engineer around to physically inspect the switches inside your meter (and that assumes they've got a copy of the installation manual for your paticular RTS meter). Unlike a smart meter, old RTS ones don't communicate back to base.

If you want to know your off-peak hours, using a neon indicator on one of your fused spurs (or something similar) is the simplest option. However, it might be not be particularly relevant. When you get a smart meter you'll be moved to a conventional tariff with one MPAN.

Once you've got a smart meter, all sorts of tariffs will be available.

Out of interest, what are Octopus currently charging you for your three rates and two standing charges?

simfrend

 This is our current tariff.

Yes it was SSE and OVO previously but I'm learning about this as I go and find the timings that have been provided hard to believe...I was wondering if they were a mistake because I can't see any scenario where it would make sense to have NSH on for 42 hours straight over the weekend etc.

simfrend

Octopus insist that the only option is an ECO7 smart meter and that's all they are apparently offering. They do curiously refer to the existing setup as ECO10 but like you say it bears no resemblance to any typical ECO10 tariff.

simfrend

We did ask Octopus to send out an engineer to interrogate the meter, to find out what's going on and they agreed. Unfortunately, when the engineer arrived he had no idea what he was looking at or how to get any data/timings from the meter.

QrizB

simfrend said:

Octopus insist that the only option is an ECO7 smart meter and that's all they are apparently offering. They do curiously refer to the existing setup as ECO10 but like you say it bears no resemblance to any typical ECO10 tariff.

Octopus don't know their own tariffs.

Yes, they could offer you Economy 7 (which is the same rates as your current tariff, but 7 hrs cheap overnight / 17 peak a day).

Or you could go for Snug Octopus, which gives 6 nighttime hours plus 1 afternoon top-up hour, all cheaper than E7 night, and a peak rate that's also cheaper than E7 day.

https://octopus.energy/smart/snug-octopus/

The current Snug Octopus rates in Southern region are:

That's a 3p/kWh saving on the Day rate, and 4p/kWh on night. Plus you'd now only be paying one standing charge.

Or of course you could switch to one of the other suppliers who offer various tariffs, eg. Economy 9 or (genuine) Economy 10.

Is it really 617 days since you last submitted a meter reading   You really should do soemthing about that, the recommendation is to send a reading every quarter when the rates change!

Scot_39

simfrend said:

Yes it was SSE and OVO previously but I'm learning about this as I go and find the timings that have been provided hard to believe...I was wondering if they were a mistake because I can't see any scenario where it would make sense to have NSH on for 42 hours straight over the weekend etc.

AS my reply in your other thread - 

PS For future reference - Ideally you should really have asked it to be split out and moved - rather than start afresh.

Its the thermostat settings that you perhaps should be worried about - not the permanent live mains status.

Actually most modern NSH have a 24/7 live feed and a restricted / switched feed - and won't work without it.

Take those with GCH - 85% of homes - well over 20 million - I suspect millions will leave their gas central heating powered on 24/7/365 and never isolate the gas supply.

The 42 hours / 10 hour thing - its a distraction

And looks like they are billing you at e7 rates - far better than many legacy tariffs.

QrizB

Scot_39 said:

AS my reply in your other thread - you should really have asked it to be split out and moved - rather than start afresh.

I think OP started this thread first, then posted in the other one? I've asked for them to be merged.

simfrend

Hi both,

Thanks for replies. Sorry, I wasn't really sure how the threads work I'm afraid.

The NSHs are pretty old with dials (where they haven't broken off) the property is rented. By thermostat, do you mean the "Automatic Input" dial?

What we have been really trying to establish is if the timings that Octopus have quoted are a mistake or if they are really some old and strange tariff. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

To add to the picture, in the year 2018/19 average daily energy use on the Heat only was 23kWh per day - this is before looking into any of this. By comparison, for the year 23-24 it is down to an average of 7.1kWh per day by manually switching the heaters on and off at the wall to restrict the number of hours they are on for.

QrizB

That heater is a Dimplex XLSN. Quite elderly and designed for Economy 7.

The input knob controls how hot it gets before the internal thermostat stops it charging further. The "boost" knob controls how fast it lets heat out.

You'll find the (simple) instructions here, together with a description of how they work:

https://www.heatershop.co.uk/Cache/Downloads/Dimplex-XLS-Operating-Instructions.pdf