o2 non refundable deposit

Ergates

The non-contract prices of new iPhones varies wildly.  Is £300 a reasonable percentage of that price for the phone now no longer being new?  The iPhone 16 Pro Max for instance, seems to be around £1500.  I don't know how much a 2nd hand one would cost.  If you can find that, and it's less than a £300 drop, then you could use that as a bargaining point.   (or the relevant figures for whichever phone it was, obviously).

RefluentBeans

OP the issue is that you actually have two contracts: the airtime plan and the device plan. These two contracts have different ways of testing them out. 

In the airtime plan it is completely reasonable to use the plan for 3 days, realise the local area connection is garbage and cancel the contract within the 14 day cooling off period, with a full refund (minus the cost of the 3 days you have used). There is no other way you can really ensure that the service meets that is offered. 

In the device plan using a phone for 3 days isn’t reasonable to check the product meets the contract. The general guide to see how much handling is necessary to inspect the product is what you would be able to do in a shop. So in a shop, you could reasonably expect to check the product by opening the product box, installing a sim, checking the device for defects, and ensure components are functioning as expected (camera, microphone, screen, charging chip etc). All this you could insist on doing in a shop, and would constitute reasonable handling. 

Unfortunately, I think the handling of the phone is beyond the minimum required to ascertain if it meets the contract. And as such, you are liable to pay a cost to ensure that the retailer isn’t at a loss here. The question is if £300 is a reasonable amount of money. Like others have said, there’s not an easy answer to that from this board, but important O2 should not be profiting from the cancelled contract and the cost should be just to  ensure they don’t make a loss (ie if they offer refurbished phones- you may be liable to pay the cost of that certification and the diminished value between the new and refurbished handset). 

So the question that has been asked, but not answered, is would you be willing to cancel the airtime contract and take out a sim-only contract with a company whilst paying the device plan? 

Another question - have you tried butting the sim in another phone? Or another O2 sim in the iPhone? To see if the device is faulty? If that’s the case the situation does change. 

If the phone is fully functional, then I’m afraid the best bet may be to ask to cancel the airtime contract and keep the device contract, or you may be liable to pay the loss in value for the device. 

cmthephoenix

The phone is perfect I know you can find open box offers which I thought were customer returns. So this cant be the first time this has happened

I just need to know what is covered in 14 days cooling off period.
O2 are a big company, I cant be the first with this issue.
Thanks for any help

How much less are the open box that they do compared to new. That would seem to be a fair indication of the least amount they would charge you for the phone if it is in perfect condition from their assessment.

If you're happy with the phone then keeping the phone and swapping to a different SIM network would give you a cost saving compared to if you had been happy with the o2 signal. Lebara often do SIMs for £1 or so a month depending on how much data is needed.

born_again

OP started new thread in mobile section

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6581561/o2-non-refundable-deposit#latest

Jumblebumble

GDB2222 said:

pau1777 said:

So If Im reading this correctly from the paragraph in bold.
You're allowed to do what's necessary to make sure that what you've received from us is what you thought you were buying, and that it all works as you expected. But no more than that. 

She used it to check the coverage at her home and at her school, its not working as we expected it to do as there is no coverage. Ive checked the coverage checker on o2 it says there are some areas of signal and some areas where there is no signal, so its not working as expected. Its taken 2 days to do this as she needed to go to school.

The phrase used it more than needed and we will deduct an amount to cover damage is something Im not really sure about, if there is no damage then where do we go? Im happy to pay for services used no problem!

Im Im reading this correctly its more about returning an item which they have classed as being damaged from use or indeed misuse. to see if its working correctly.

You may be right in your interpretation, and let’s hope you can persuade O2 CS of that. Fairly obviously there are other ways of checking O2 coverage than buying a brand new iPhone and using it for 3 days.

I think it a stretch to ignore the possibility that someone ringing up customer services to complain may be told
Coverage is good in your area so O2 are probably carrying out maintenance and it should be back to normal soon 
I am sure a good number of people  on here are aware of the whole Huawei situation

GDB2222

pau1777 said:

flaneurs_lobster said:

From reading those O2 terms it seems that you are absolutely correct to expect a return of your £300. What might be the case is that you are not giving the reason for the return that the Terms state - "you’ve decided that the device isn’t for you", rather you are seeking return because the coverage is poor.

Try again but lie.

If that doesn't work maybe a compromise might be negotiated (I know that O2 et al are a pain to contact let alone have a meaningful conversation with) keep the phone (maybe buy outright) but cancel the airtime contract.

Thanks mate.
Part of the conditions for them accepting the contract cancellation was I needed to send the phone back within the first 14 days. No option to end the contract and buy the phone.

I tried to call them today I was on hold for 1 hour 20 minutes, then the phone cut out. I cant face being on the phone for another hour today or it just cutting out again.

I would not have gone with o2, it was my daughter who said she wanted to have the option to upgrade after 6 or 12 months.
You live you learn I guess, just dont want this to be a very expensive 3 days thats all!

If you get nowhere with O2, buy a second sim from Lebara. £4 a month for 7 months, then it goes up to £10, but you can cancel and get another cheap sim. The phone will take a second sim and switch between them automatically - at least my cheap Motorola phone does that, so I guess a more expensive iPhone will too. 

Lebara uses the Vodafone network, so you can check coverage. 

https://www.lebara.co.uk/en/msm/p/44000053.html

It’s not as good as getting a full refund, but much better than paying £300! 

pau1777

RefluentBeans said:

OP the issue is that you actually have two contracts: the airtime plan and the device plan. These two contracts have different ways of testing them out. 

In the airtime plan it is completely reasonable to use the plan for 3 days, realise the local area connection is garbage and cancel the contract within the 14 day cooling off period, with a full refund (minus the cost of the 3 days you have used). There is no other way you can really ensure that the service meets that is offered. 

In the device plan using a phone for 3 days isn’t reasonable to check the product meets the contract. The general guide to see how much handling is necessary to inspect the product is what you would be able to do in a shop. So in a shop, you could reasonably expect to check the product by opening the product box, installing a sim, checking the device for defects, and ensure components are functioning as expected (camera, microphone, screen, charging chip etc). All this you could insist on doing in a shop, and would constitute reasonable handling. 

Unfortunately, I think the handling of the phone is beyond the minimum required to ascertain if it meets the contract. And as such, you are liable to pay a cost to ensure that the retailer isn’t at a loss here. The question is if £300 is a reasonable amount of money. Like others have said, there’s not an easy answer to that from this board, but important O2 should not be profiting from the cancelled contract and the cost should be just to  ensure they don’t make a loss (ie if they offer refurbished phones- you may be liable to pay the cost of that certification and the diminished value between the new and refurbished handset). 

So the question that has been asked, but not answered, is would you be willing to cancel the airtime contract and take out a sim-only contract with a company whilst paying the device plan? 

Another question - have you tried butting the sim in another phone? Or another O2 sim in the iPhone? To see if the device is faulty? If that’s the case the situation does change. 

If the phone is fully functional, then I’m afraid the best bet may be to ask to cancel the airtime contract and keep the device contract, or you may be liable to pay the loss in value for the device. 

Hi,
That is a really interesting point and actually this is a really interesting debate as Ive always been confused about consumer rights and the laws.
In terms of the device plan itself, then I absolutely agree with you I dont think that 3 days is excessive.

With the phone itself, how is this proved that testing has been excessive?
I could say I opened the box turned it on put the phone away never touched it again and popped the sim in another phone to test the signal.
Now in reality its not very likely that when you get a new phone this will happen, but can this be proved if there is no damage to the phone. I could say that the phone has not been out of the box and there is no way to tell.
Equally if the phone uses an esim card, then the phone is an integral part of the testing process as you can not test without the phone does an esim phone the have different testing processes to a physical sim phone?
Without testing the sim whould you expect anyone to send the phone back?
Is this practical and workable?

As a consumer there should be some information in the contract or the terms and conditions to say, if you open this box then you are liable for £x amount due to the cost that the company will have to pay for returning an open box product.
I would absolutely agree with that, I know that it would be difficult as all products are different, but to acknowledge there would be an admin fee or a restocking fee (Ive seen other websites stating this) I would be on board with so as a customer I would know exactly the risk that I would take if I open the box, even if they say it would be 10-20% of the handset costs.
No arguments at all.
On the website and in all the terms and conditions I can not find anything to say that this would be the intention of the company, they only mention the cooling off period.

Now I would have considered taking the phone and then paying a sim only contract with another provider, but this was not an option. I was told the only way to cancel the contract was to send the phone back.
The phone is not an expensive one it was an iphone 14, so new it would be about £450-550, second hand price varies, most expensive open box £500 cheapest about £400 in perfect condition.

Im with o2 so I went yesterday to see the coverage and yes at her school there are significant blackspots in the area where there is no signal, despite it saying on the coverage checker there is signal outdoors.

While I totally understand all the points that have been made and they do make perfect sense, surely this needs to be written down in the conditions of sale so that actually the 14 day cooling off period only applies to the airtime contract, the actual phone is different and these are the conditions for this so people are aware before they buy the phone and contract what to expect.

This is why I was asking, if its not in the contract can they make things up as we go along such as saying well the depreciation will be £x so you will have to pay the difference.
But also keeping the £300 would absolutely be making a profit from the opening of the box as they would get more than that back from the resale  even as an open box.

A_Geordie

According to the O2 T&Cs of the refresh plan, it is a fixed sum credit agreement regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Therefore, ownership of the device belongs to the OP immediately so it is curious that the CS representative suggested the OP has to return the iPhone as that doesn't appear to be correct.

Clause 17 of the T&Cs says: 

If a Lead Device Credit Agreement is terminated at any time or your Pay Monthly Mobile Agreement is terminated within the first 24 months ... and, other than in circumstances where you terminate your Pay Monthly Mobile Agreement as a result of our material breach or outside of the first 24 months, we will have the right to require immediate repayment of the remaining balance of the Amount of Credit (whether or not accrued due for payment). We will give you notice of our intention to do this and will notify you of the remainder of the Amount of Credit you owe.

Although it's not explicitly stated in the above clause, s98 of the CCA 1974 allows creditors to terminate for non-default cases but they must provide the notice in a prescribed form set out by law and have to give at least 7 days' notice to you.

If you were to terminate the airtime plan under the CCRs then it would seem that O2 have the right to give notice to terminate the credit agreement for the handset and require payment of the outstanding balance.

What I haven't seen in either of the two threads so far, is that O2 may be in breach of the Consumer Rights Act under section 49 which requires them to provide the service with reasonable care and skill. I would expect that I should be able to receive an uninterrupted service at least within the area I am currently residing but aside from maintenance and repairs, if that service is regularly interrupted or is non-existent, I would argue that there has been a failure to provide the service with reasonable care and skill. You could as an alternative to terminating for change of mind, put O2 on notice that there is no signal or service within your area and provide evidence of the same (notwithstanding any a coverage checker says as there can be black spots) and ask them to take action within a reasonable period, if not then you will terminate the agreement for breach. 

Going down this path potentially avoids the right for O2 to terminate the credit agreement and call in the loan as termination of the airtime plan for lack of reasonable care and skill, would be considered a material breach. 

I'm not suggesting this option is better than termination for change of mind, I'm simply offering an alternative perspective. 

Ergates

pau1777 said:

With the phone itself, how is this proved that testing has been excessive?
I could say I opened the box turned it on put the phone away never touched it again and popped the sim in another phone to test the signal.
Now in reality its not very likely that when you get a new phone this will happen, but can this be proved if there is no damage to the phone. I could say that the phone has not been out of the box and there is no way to tell.
Equally if the phone uses an esim card, then the phone is an integral part of the testing process as you can not test without the phone does an esim phone the have different testing processes to a physical sim phone?
Without testing the sim whould you expect anyone to send the phone back?
Is this practical and workable?

O2 can tell which devices have been connected to their network.

RefluentBeans

pau1777 said:

RefluentBeans said:

OP the issue is that you actually have two contracts: the airtime plan and the device plan. These two contracts have different ways of testing them out. 

In the airtime plan it is completely reasonable to use the plan for 3 days, realise the local area connection is garbage and cancel the contract within the 14 day cooling off period, with a full refund (minus the cost of the 3 days you have used). There is no other way you can really ensure that the service meets that is offered. 

In the device plan using a phone for 3 days isn’t reasonable to check the product meets the contract. The general guide to see how much handling is necessary to inspect the product is what you would be able to do in a shop. So in a shop, you could reasonably expect to check the product by opening the product box, installing a sim, checking the device for defects, and ensure components are functioning as expected (camera, microphone, screen, charging chip etc). All this you could insist on doing in a shop, and would constitute reasonable handling. 

Unfortunately, I think the handling of the phone is beyond the minimum required to ascertain if it meets the contract. And as such, you are liable to pay a cost to ensure that the retailer isn’t at a loss here. The question is if £300 is a reasonable amount of money. Like others have said, there’s not an easy answer to that from this board, but important O2 should not be profiting from the cancelled contract and the cost should be just to  ensure they don’t make a loss (ie if they offer refurbished phones- you may be liable to pay the cost of that certification and the diminished value between the new and refurbished handset). 

So the question that has been asked, but not answered, is would you be willing to cancel the airtime contract and take out a sim-only contract with a company whilst paying the device plan? 

Another question - have you tried butting the sim in another phone? Or another O2 sim in the iPhone? To see if the device is faulty? If that’s the case the situation does change. 

If the phone is fully functional, then I’m afraid the best bet may be to ask to cancel the airtime contract and keep the device contract, or you may be liable to pay the loss in value for the device. 

Hi,
That is a really interesting point and actually this is a really interesting debate as Ive always been confused about consumer rights and the laws.
In terms of the device plan itself, then I absolutely agree with you I dont think that 3 days is excessive.

With the phone itself, how is this proved that testing has been excessive?
I could say I opened the box turned it on put the phone away never touched it again and popped the sim in another phone to test the signal.
Now in reality its not very likely that when you get a new phone this will happen, but can this be proved if there is no damage to the phone. I could say that the phone has not been out of the box and there is no way to tell.
Equally if the phone uses an esim card, then the phone is an integral part of the testing process as you can not test without the phone does an esim phone the have different testing processes to a physical sim phone?
Without testing the sim whould you expect anyone to send the phone back?
Is this practical and workable?

As a consumer there should be some information in the contract or the terms and conditions to say, if you open this box then you are liable for £x amount due to the cost that the company will have to pay for returning an open box product.
I would absolutely agree with that, I know that it would be difficult as all products are different, but to acknowledge there would be an admin fee or a restocking fee (Ive seen other websites stating this) I would be on board with so as a customer I would know exactly the risk that I would take if I open the box, even if they say it would be 10-20% of the handset costs.
No arguments at all.
On the website and in all the terms and conditions I can not find anything to say that this would be the intention of the company, they only mention the cooling off period.

Now I would have considered taking the phone and then paying a sim only contract with another provider, but this was not an option. I was told the only way to cancel the contract was to send the phone back.
The phone is not an expensive one it was an iphone 14, so new it would be about £450-550, second hand price varies, most expensive open box £500 cheapest about £400 in perfect condition.

Im with o2 so I went yesterday to see the coverage and yes at her school there are significant blackspots in the area where there is no signal, despite it saying on the coverage checker there is signal outdoors.

While I totally understand all the points that have been made and they do make perfect sense, surely this needs to be written down in the conditions of sale so that actually the 14 day cooling off period only applies to the airtime contract, the actual phone is different and these are the conditions for this so people are aware before they buy the phone and contract what to expect.

This is why I was asking, if its not in the contract can they make things up as we go along such as saying well the depreciation will be £x so you will have to pay the difference.
But also keeping the £300 would absolutely be making a profit from the opening of the box as they would get more than that back from the resale  even as an open box.

The reduction in refund (not fees) are not there for the company to make a profit. They are there so the companies don’t make a loss. Restocking fees and the like are illegal (at least in consumer contracts). The company should charge you the minimum. In your case; if they need to pay Apple to validate that the phone is refurbished (or some other third party) then you may be liable for that, but you would be liable for say a new box, cellophane (or paper in apples case) and the screen ‘protector’ that comes with the phone. 

As the amount you can test the phone - there is no one rule but a good benchmark the courts tend to use is to match what you would be able to do in a brick and mortar shop to allow you test the phone meets the contract. So would a shop let you have it for three days of use? I don’t think so. 

I find it interesting you can’t cancel one contract without cancelling the others too. I feel the compromise to put forward would be to keep the phone contract and lose the airtime contract.