Zen Internet - all mouth and no trousers?

iniltous

Well progress indeed, hopefully the number port will now follow and be equally ‘successful’ ,

TBH , given your own observations , what you were told by the OR technician, and the almost  immediate resolution to the problem once the Zen technical department ( not the customer service department ) were involved by the OR technician, I’m a little surprised that  you still are giving Zen something of the benefit of the doubt ….personally it seems to me pretty clear cut , Zen had either sent out a misconfigured or faulty router , or their back end systems had failed to recognise the router and authenticate onto Zens own  network,  it’s highly likely it’s been that way since  OR connected you to them on the original date , therefore the delay etc. was entirely avoidable if Zen had made different decisions once you contacted them .

I suspect that Zen have  used the Openreach SFI  ( special faults investigation ) a  process which basically is the ISP asks OR to recheck / revisit using a senior / specialist engineer to check the Openreach operations and actions were successful , the ‘deal’ is if OR find that there was an issue that OR were responsible for  the ‘investigation’ is effectively free , on the other hand  , if there was no issue within Openreach , and the checks absolve OR  , then the  ISP has basically used Openreach expertise to localise the fault into their own ISP network, in those circumstances the SFI visit is  chargeable, AFAIK, it’s in the order of a few hundred ££ , because of the ‘risk’ that the ISP will be found wanting and have to pay OR for the ISP’s fishing expedition , anecdotally ISPs  are quite reluctant to use this option, yet if they had the courage of their convictions and actually believe what they invariably tell their customer , ‘the fault is with our supplier’ , then it’s a totally risk free option.

The fact that they took so long to use this option , it presumably needed a high level sign off  with in Zen to get this  specialist visit commissioned ,  that suggests to me they were never particularly confident that OR were at fault otherwise why not employ this SFI process immediately, if it were a OR issue , no charges are raised.

Openreach don’t check if your ISP  has set up your account correctly or that the ISP  kit is  OK , there is no reason for OR to do anything like that , Zen pay for a cabinet visit not a home visit , plus there are hundreds of ISP that use OR , it’s unreasonable for OR to be expected to support the myriad of routers ISP use …..IMHO , the initial visit would have confirmed what OR were responsible for was OK , anything else is beyond OR’s control , Zen will undoubtedly be now on the hook for a significant compensation payment to you , they will probably also paying Openreach for the SFI visit as well , as strictly speaking OR have proved that the problem was always a Zen problem .

You really shouldn’t have had to wait as long as you have for a resolution that was always within Zens area of responsibility and in your position I’d be a little irritated that their default position is ‘it’s not our fault’ rather than ‘let’s get this problem fixed’ 

br1anst0rm

QrizB said:

Glad to know you're back with broadband!

Possibly not the best of times to ask, but what do you think of the FritzBox router? I've been wondering about buying one since they seem to have more bells & whistles (& have the settings unlocked) than the average piece of ISP future-ewaste.

There's a story that when Zhou EnLai, former premier of China, was asked what he thought about the French Revolution of 1789, he supposedly replied, "It's too early to say..."

I'm the same with the Fritzbox router.  It's only gone live today.  And I still haven't discovered whether, or how well, it delivers digital voice (or VOIP).  It does indeed seem to have assorted bells and whistles (eg it apparently also includes a telephone answering machine).  And the interface/control panel which you can log into seems pretty comprehensive and user friendly.

I'm however not a demanding or high-tech user.  Until now I have relied on ADSL broadband and an "ancient" Netgear DG 834g v3 router which probably counts as an antique.

The Fritzbox is made by AVM in Germany.  But as far as i know only Zen supplies or uses it in UK (and I have heard that they are moving to some other router).

Also relevant that recently a software update to the FritzBox (v8.0)  went badly.  There are scores of complaints on broadband forums from angry Zen customers suffering frequent dropouts - although it appears a further update may have cured the glitch.  Still, not a totally encouraging sign.

So at present i can't offer personal views either for or against.  Not being a tech geek, i tend to think the provider supplying the service is more crucial than whatever piece of hardware they use.

br1anst0rm

iniltous said:

...TBH , given your own observations , what you were told by the OR technician, and the almost  immediate resolution to the problem once the Zen technical department (not the customer service department ) were involved by the OR technician, I’m a little surprised that  you still are giving Zen something of the benefit of the doubt …. Personally it seems to me pretty clear cut , Zen had either sent out a misconfigured or faulty router , or their back end systems had failed to recognise the router and authenticate onto Zen's own network.  It’s highly likely it’s been that way since OR connected you to them on the original date , therefore the delay etc. was entirely avoidable if Zen had made different decisions once you contacted them .
.....

.... strictly speaking OR have proved that the problem was always a Zen problem .

Spot on, @iniltous .  That assessment pretty much echoes my own view.  I don't think I'm giving Zen the benefit of the doubt.  My conclusion is that they have managed this badly from Day One.  The OR technician was methodical and thorough.  He talked me through all the stages of his checks as well as explaining (to this non-expert) what the situation was at the green cabinet at the end of the street - which he'd checked before coming to the house.  Having tested every point along the wiring to and in, the premises, and found everything 100%, he pointed to the router as the likely culprit - which is why he called Zen tech support.

So you're right, the problem was almost certainly totally avoidable, and was the result of Zen's poor management and decisions.  It beggars belief that there seems to be so little coordination between the customer service/order delivery people and the tech support people.  That ought to be fundamental.  

My main impression is that Zen's frontline staff in the order-deiivery and customer service departments are urged to be very polite (which they are)  but they are not skilled in analysing or solving problems.  So they don't refer problems to the tech staff, and they simply pass on messages from suppliers like OpenReach without any sort of checking process.

My position now is that I'm stuck with Zen for the next 18 months.  They have got off to a very poor start.  I hope their service improves and above all is reliable.  I lose no sleep over the possibility that they will have to pay a hefty sum to OR for the SFI visit which did their troubleshooting for them.  As far as I'm concerned, it serves them right.  And I am quite clear that they owe me proper and appropriate compensation for a whole month's delay in delivery of service.  Looks like I may have to fight them now over that....

M25

Sounds like Zen done a very good job in getting your service working.

I can't work out where the problem was but it doesn't sound like Zen did anything wrong.

iniltous

Sounds like Zen done a very good job in getting your service working.

I can't work out where the problem was but it doesn't sound like Zen did anything wrong.

Really , let’s recap , the migration to Zen from Plusnet fails , the customer calls Zen , who imply the problem is with Openreach and Zen are unable to do anything about it , Zen do precisely nothing for around 3 weeks , the  customer chases Zen continuously during this period for a resolution , Zen eventually and reluctantly arrange for Openreach to visit the customer . Openreach visit and find that contrary to what Zen had told the customer, there were no issues  within the Openreach network, the OR tech helpfully contacts Zens  technical department directly, and says they have conclusively proved the problem is within the Zen network .
The Zen network technician then  in effect simply hits the  Zen ‘reset’  button , something they could have done 3 weeks earlier , and the customer now has Zen service.

Unless you were being sarcastic, you really think Zen did a great job and can’t work out that they did nothing wrong ? , the ‘button’ they pressed could have been pressed at least three weeks earlier , obviously there probably isn’t a reset button as such , but it’s to illustrate that whatever they did , it shouldn’t have required Openreach to tell them to do it , if they had any competence they could have realised this issue and performed whatever function they performed much earlier.

br1anst0rm

Thanks @iniltous .  Couldn't have put it better myself!  

As before, @M25 seems to have difficulty in understanding what has happened. and is perhaps letting his prejudices get in the way of the facts.

username

iniltous said:

Openreach haven’t given you any useful or significant detail for the delay , but that’s the way Ofcom and ISP’s like Zen want the  system to run , you can’t speak to OR , and OR are not allowed to speak to you .

I'm pleased to hear that emailing the Zen CEO has kicked them into action, and hopefully they've not made a meal of porting your analogue line to VOIP.

It would be nice to hear how this all ended - completely get that you wouldn't have wanted to stick with Zen for the next however many months, however, if they are able to make a path to amends and place you in a reasonable position then I'd feel it would be better than trying to undo everything and go elsewhere.

I don't agree with Ofcom's way of keeping the subscriber in the dark, with little transparency and technical information. What purpose does this opaqueness serve? Ultimately I would have thought should the information have been shared and available, the OP may have a better understanding, and also there would be less of a tendency to blame another party as the end client will be able to see your notes and actions.

You wouldn't go to a garage to get your car fixed, and them just say "the car's faulty, here's the bill" without any detail about the issue. 

br1anst0rm

username said:

I'm pleased to hear that emailing the Zen CEO has kicked them into action, and hopefully they've not made a meal of porting your analogue line to VOIP.

It would be nice to hear how this all ended - completely get that you wouldn't have wanted to stick with Zen for the next however many months, however, if they are able to make a path to amends and place you in a reasonable position then I'd feel it would be better than trying to undo everything and go elsewhere.

I don't agree with Ofcom's way of keeping the subscriber in the dark, with little transparency and technical information. What purpose does this opaqueness serve? Ultimately I would have thought should the information have been shared and available, the OP may have a better understanding, and also there would be less of a tendency to blame another party as the end client will be able to see your notes and actions.

You wouldn't go to a garage to get your car fixed, and them just say "the car's faulty, here's the bill" without any detail about the issue. 

Well, @username, we're not quite there yet.....

I have a broadband internet connection with Zen, and it seems to be stable.  That's the good news.

Zen still hasn't managed to get the VOIP set up yet.  I await further updates in the next few days.  Still don't know if they have succeeded in retaining and porting our old landline number.  If they do, good.  But failure to retain and use our old number will be a deal-breaker:  little point in having a VOIP service without the number which all our contacts know and use.

Then we might face a bit of a wrangle over compensation for the unusual and unacceptable delays.  As people often say, the real test of a provider or supplier is how they respond when things don't go well.  So far Zen the picture is mixed:  ignorance and ineptitude most of the time, and action only when the CEO got a [polite but forceful] kicking.  If they pay compensation without quibbling, that will be encouraging.

On the wider topic of Ofcom's procedures and the One Touch Switch (OTS) process, I think there are pros and cons.  On the plus side, the OTS arrangements should be convenient for the customer.  One point of contact (the new provider) should keep things simple.  In theory it spares the customer having to talk to, and negotiate between, three or four different organisations (old ISP, new ISP, BT phone people, and OpenReach network-engineers), on matters that are likely to be technical and possibly complex.  The OTS process is supposed to be just like the well-established similar method of switching bank accounts, which seems to work well.

But on the minus side, if we are to rely on one player (eg in this case Zen, the new provider) to liaise, coordinate and problem-solve, then it does require that player to be fully capable, knowledgeable and efficient, and able to resolve any issues that arise.  As this long thread has illustrated, Zen simply have not been up to the job.  They've shown a lack of expertise, a tendency just to pass on uninformative messages ("there's a problem at the cabinet..."), an unwillingness or inability to look for and deliver solutions, and a desire to pass the buck, blame others, and duck responsibility.  Not a good picture for a company that makes such a fuss about its reputation for reliability and service, its 'Which' approval, etc.

I'll be clearer about the way forward later in the week (assuming the VOIP service is eventually delivered).  After the dire experience of the past month, I'd like to think that things can only get better!

iniltous

TBH , OTS , one touch switching , has only one advantage over the NOTs system it replaced is that it works ( supposedly ) over all networks that have signed up to it , so switching from Virgin Network to City Fibre Network can be handled by OTS , where as previously that would have required the customer to advise Virgin themselves , and if the date service was to cease had to coordinate with the  date the City Fibre installation was scheduled, could require both providers hitting the agreed dates , and if it were required the customer was wanting the new service to be in and confirmed working before risking the cessation of their old network provider, OTS actually would defeat that aim 

in this case as the OP was switching between Plusnet and Zen , so the same network provider, OTS provided absolutely no advantage over the NOTs system, (Notice Of Transfer ) , 

both systems required the customer to only contact the new provider , the new provider is in control, and they serve notice on behalf of the customer to the losing provider and mange the migration, both systems are GPL ( gaining provider led ) so under NOTs there is no need to contact the losing provider, and there never was any requirement ( or necessity ) for the switcher to contact the underlying network provider ( Openreach ) 

br1anst0rm

iniltous said:

TBH , OTS , one touch switching , has only one advantage over the NOTs system it replaced is that it works ( supposedly ) over all networks that have signed up to it.....

.....
in this case as the OP was switching between Plusnet and Zen , so the same network provider, OTS provided absolutely no advantage over the NOTs system, (Notice Of Transfer ) ....

both systems required the customer to only contact the new provider , the new provider is in control, and they serve notice on behalf of the customer to the losing provider and manage the migration, both systems are GPL ( gaining provider led ).....

Very interesting.

I have not previously switched providers at all (I was with Plusnet for over 20 years).  So I have no experience of the NOTs procedure which applied before OTS was introduced.

I was under the impression that because OTS had only fairly recently been introduced it might be a tad unfamiliar and different to what went before.  So I was prepared to believe that the Zen people were on some sort of learning curve.

But if both the NOTs arrangements and OTS are "gaining provider led", then - Gawd help us! - there is no such excuse.  

Even under the old NOTs system, Zen would have had to manage my switchover.  And as it was a simple upgrade (ADSL to FTTC) on the same network using the existing connections, it should have been simple and straightforward.

Yet Zen made an absolute pig's ear of it all.  Makes the story an even more damning indictment of the company's incompetence.