Zen Internet - all mouth and no trousers?

br1anst0rm

username said:

... As much as you want this to be hands off and playing by the rules for one touch switching, given the tight deadline for retrieval of the dead landline number, you will need to make at both Plusnet and Zen to escalate this and get it beyond the first levels of customer service/support. Even if you write to the CEO or Director you may end up with a more competent team whose job is to solely resolve or look at complicated issues.

Well, if not a result, at least the prospect of meaningful progress.  Over the weekend I had a shot at emailing the CEO of Zen, Richard Tang,  not knowing whether the email address I was using was valid.  And... immediate response:  a reply this morning from Tang personally, not a secretary or staff member, apologising and promising action.

So we now wait to see what happens next!

br1anst0rm

@M25.... I accept all posts on this thread as thoughtful contributions.  

But your comments are as misguided as they are unhelpful.  Nevertheless I shall pay you the respect of addressing each point you make.

M25 said:

Moving from ADSL to FTTC will increase the chance of a problem no doubt. There may be a problem that's been hidden for years. No evidence of that so far.

Why should a move from ADSL to FTTC be a problem?  Almost all providers offer and encourage it.  Millions have successfully made the move.  In this instance such evidence as has emerged of a [technical] problem is second-hand and imprecise.

I don't see why Zen are being blamed I'm sure they're doing everything they can.

Zen are the lead in managing and coordinating the entire process under the One Touch Switch process.  They are responsible.  They may be doing whatever they can.  But it is patently not enough.

What OpenReach has done or not done is none of your business.

Correct.  Not my business directly.  It's Zen's responsibility to task them and ensure OpenReach deliver on the contracted commitment made.

If the line had a cease order by Plusnet I'm sure that started the problem.

Wrong.   The transfer started with an order to switch broadband service.  The problem emerged when that was being implemented.   Moving the phone from landline to VOIP was a secondary, subordinate and consequential matter.  And the timing of both was for Zen to control and coordinate.  Plusnet acted (and ceased the landline phone) on the basis of what Zen told them.  That instruction from Zen was not accurate or timely.  And Zen ignored an explicit reminder to make sure they did not ask Plusnet  to terminate the phone line until they knew that the replacement VOIP connection was available and active.

 One touch moving is still not perfect and it's being ironed out but obviously it's not going to work very well if there's a ceased line.

The One Touch Switch scheme is centred on the change of broadband service.  It's not triggered by, or contingent on, what is done with a landline phone service.  The changeover may not always go like clockwork.  But the point of the process to ensure that one, single agency takes the lead, manages the transition, fixes the dates, liaises with the other contractors, resolves any hiccups that emerge, and is the sole point of contact for the customer.  Zen has that role.  They screwed up.

I don't think you have a valid contract with Zen as they have failed -so far- to provide the service.

That seems reasonable.  Non-delivery should invalidate a contract.  But I can't see anything in the Zen Ts & Cs which says so.

The fact that was caused by Plusnet's ineptitude and maybe something going wrong with OR tell me me Plusnet are entirely responsible.

Inaccurate assessment, unjustified conclusion.

In hindsight you should have moved to FTTC with Plusnet and then moved to Zen.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Zen provide a very good service IME but they can't control Plusnet's error or OR problem solving (that's if there's even a problem). That is no excuse of course but it sounds like they've not been given a chance to resolve the situation [caused by your provider, Plusnet].

YMMV, as they say.  But Zen has had ample opportunity, over more than a month, to address and resolve whatever obstacles emerged.  My order and my contract was/is with them to provide the new service and manage the switch.  They have failed, and during that month have consistently made commitments which they have not kept

I have to say reading all your very detailed, expansive and sometimes irrelevant posts it's very difficult to grasp what exactly the problem is. If you speak on the phone to Zen or Plusnet or in a complaint like you type here that's not going to help you.

I have to say that I am not inclined to respond to that disobliging comment.  It reveals more about your capacity for comprehension than about the accuracy and relevance of the information I provided.

iniltous

TBH , getting Zen senior management involved can only be a good thing , in that even if ultimately there is a problem that can’t be resolved, then at least the explanation of how you got to where you are should be comprehensive and not as basic as ‘a problem at the cabinet’ , which isn’t informative in any way , even it it’s true.

Personally I suspect the issue may prove to be insurmountable, if it were something ‘ordinary’ like a fault in the FTTC cabinet affecting the allocated port , then swapping cards doesn’t take weeks , and if there were other ‘spares’ available then a ‘lift and shift’ is done by the technician on the day whilst at the cabinet , it’s not a big deal and is pretty much business as usual ……however , if for example , the cabinet shows spares available but that information is wrong ,and a cabinet expansion were necessary, or your address shows FTTC available, but the address data is wrong and FTTC isn’t actually available then ultimately the order cancelled by Openreach as undeliverable , with an apology offered to the ISP that FTTC should never have been offered and compensation would be by negotiation but essentially no FTTC would be provided.

An observation, the FTTC rollout in the main was 10-15 years ago , there were pockets that took much longer , E/O lines have no cabinet ( so obviously no fibre to the cabinet if there isn’t a cabinet in the first place ) , or some really rural locations have such long lines from the copper cabinet that ADSL actually outperforms VDSL/FTTC so in those cases although FTTC is technically available it isn’t sold because it would be a nonsense to give a slower VDSL service compared to the ADSL service , but those are very rare situations ,  given that your ‘order’ is so late in the scheme of things  , ( potentially you have ordered VDSL a decade after it was available, it’s possible that whatever the issue is has been there forever, but has only come to light because of your recent order for connection to FTTC , and 10 years ago , this error may have had an engineering solution to supply service, because FTTC had a future 10 years  ago , but today FTTC is a historic legacy product and is effectively old hat , and OR will not be spending any £££ to provide it or expand its reach now , concentrating their efforts on FTTP 

br1anst0rm

I bow to your evidently expert knowledge and insight, @iniltous.  I don't have the technical expertise to comment on whether your analysis regarding the nature and severity of the problem is on-target.  It certainly seems possible.

But I can say that we are not in a remote or physically challenging rural location with long or vulnerable copper wire lines or a tenuous or vulnerable local network of cabinets and exchanges.  We are in a sizeable town in Scotland, in a suburban street.  For the past 15 years or more we have had a solid and good quality ADSL broadand service.   

As I understand it,  BT Openreach have over the past several years installed or upgraded the main network to fibre throughout the town.  There are certainly numerous new green Openreach Fibre cabinets on street corners!  Some local customers may have fast full-fibre (FTTP) connections, and certainly very many people and neighbours have good and reliable FTTC access to the internet.  

So I don't think I'm the first in the area to seek an upgrade to FTTC with VOIP.   I don't think that request is unusual.  But equally, I don't believe there has been a massive recent stampede of demand which has overwhelmed the available capacity of the local network.

I cannot speculate on OpenReach policies and strategy.  My impression was that they were engaged in a steady progression from ADSL (basic and traditional) to FTTC (better, with a hybrid of fibre and copper wire) and then FTTP (best and fastest, full fibre).  In our part of the country they are only part way down that path, with customers gradually shifting from ADSL to FTTC.

I do not know (and would not understand) the precise picture and wiring configuration at the specific green cabinet which serves our property.  The BTW website tables show FTTC as available for our address.  On the face of it there seems no particular or special reason why the switch/upgrade we requested - and which we were confidently assured would be deliverable with little or no break in service - is not being implemented.

iniltous

I’m in absolute agreement about the banality of upgrading to FTTC from ADSL , I dare say that most making this migration in your area  would have done so pretty soon after FTTC was available, and as stated that may have been a decade or more ago .
Given the relatively small price increase over ADSL fir FTTC , and usually a significant increase in speed , you are probably a late convert , but it is  a technology at the end of it’s useful life , so little if any new FTTC will be provided , so if you can’t get it now , it’s not likely that any new FTTC kit would be supplied to increase capacity.

 My pessimism is based on the fact that because conversion to FTTC it is so mundane that any problem that isn’t quickly resolved, is likely to be unusual or expensive to resolve , especially as now you have confirmed the geographical location shouldn’t be particularly problematic…..my examples of possible problems are only speculation on my part ,and not an exhaustive list , there are many other possibilities that could cause significant delay or even cancellation , but as stated , the normal issues that delay migration, ( technician can’t attend due to sickness , vehicle issues , or the original allocated FTTC port is faulty, shouldn’t cause much of a delay, hence the suspicion that when you do get a full explanation of the problem, it won’t necessarily have a positive outcome.

br1anst0rm

I understand your perspective on this, @iniltous , and it seems entirely plausible.  

We're stuck with having to guess what the problem is as neither OpenReach nor Zen have given any useful or significant detail for the repeated delays.  

It would be exasperating if the explanation was just staff sickness, seasonal holidays, bad weather, or broken-down vehicle (or even someone forgetting to program the tech work or failing to pass on an instruction....).

I think I'll just have to wait and see what results from the high-level pressure I have now put on Zen.

iniltous

Openreach haven’t given you any useful or significant detail for the delay , but that’s the way Ofcom and ISP’s like Zen want the  system to run , you can’t speak to OR , and OR are not allowed to speak to you .
TBH , that was my original point , you , (we) can’t know for sure if OR have supplied Zen with a full explanation or detail or not , we don’t know if the ordering system that automatically provides a simple explanation when a delay is encountered, is all Zen has to go on because they haven’t enquired further , ( the  ISP has to enquire to get a fuller or more detailed explanation )  , something you would hope they do if their  customer contacts them wanting a detailed explanation of the issue .
I will concede that Zen may have contacted OR and not been provided with any extra detail, but that’s my point , we can’t know and the ISP isn’t necessarily going to be honest about chasing on your behalf, if they are  content to  pass on the ‘one line’ reason the system auto generates and basically have no desire to get further involved on your behalf … Zen are responsible for any and all communication with you, OR not contacting you is correct ,  it’s not an abdication of their responsibility ,  they aren’t responsible to you , Zen are perfectly at liberty to enquire with OR on your behalf as often as they see fit , hence my comment that it’s not really important who has messed up , Zen need to mange the failure, not simply blame their supplier, but I’m boring myself now , probably bored you a long time ago .

My negativity towards the ISP ( not just Zen , most of them that have a pile it high and sell it cheap ethos , TBH ,  Zen once were considered a cut above average , nut in general it’s easy to pass on the automatic message, it takes effort and commitment to contact OR and then get back to you with an explanation, and they potentially need technical expertise to pass on a more technical explanation of the issue ( the suspicion is that if they don’t understand what they are told they end up , they end up giving you nothing more that their incorrect interpretation of the problem ) in those circumstances them being a little deceptive and saying its OR’s problem, and suggesting thats all they can do , is not true .
Anyway , hopefully you won’t wait too long to be put in the picture by Zen 

br1anst0rm

Thanks, @iniltous , for continuing to follow this thread and comment.  It keeps my morale up!

It does seem that your rather jaundiced view of Zen and other ISPs is justified ("pile it high and sell it cheap" and they don't understand or can't be bothered to pass on any technical explanations).  This echoes posts I have seen in other forums.  

Zen in particular seems to have traded on its past reputation, but their support systems and technical service are no longer fit for purpose  - see for example, this comment about Zen in another forum:

"....it [the failure to switch and provide a connection] does highlight an area of Zen's technical service that needs improving IMO or a better system put in place. When the internet first started and Zen started up it was all relatively simple. The support systems that Zen had in place worked fine for this simplicity. And it will still work for most problems at the moment. But where it fails IMO is when there is a complex issue - such as the 7530 debacle  [a software problem with Zen's router]- where there will be a lot of emails flying back and forth. The trouble is that Zen's system as far as I can see ends up assigning a new ID to an incoming email and then the issue it get picks up by someone new who has no insight into what has gone before and so support becomes fragmented.

They really need a small dedicated specialist team with a proper case management system in place to handle events like the 7530 issue and other technical problems when they arise."

It's not for me to identify what could be done about this.  As I said in response to another post, hindsight is a wonderful thing.  If I'd known a month ago what I know now, I would have stayed away from Zen.  Their present performance is poor.  Either an increase in serious complaints may lead to improvement, or clients will vote with their feet, which will force change or put Zen out of business.

I've had a message directly from Zen's CEO, saying they are on the case as a priority and will deliver the connections ASAP.  We shall have to see.  At the moment, they are still living up to the description in this thread's title.....

br1anst0rm

Well, for those forum members who have been kind enough to offer advice and comment, and brave enough to follow this thread and story - such as @iniltous - it's time for an update. 

Miraculously, some progress.  But still some way to go.  Zen haven't yet redeemed themselves.

The formal complaint, high-level pressure, and imminent expiry of the 30-day window for porting the phone number to VOIP, seems eventually to have got through to Zen and galvanised some action.

After four postponements and delays in activation the latest (equally uncertain) switchover date was to have been 21 January.  I pointed out this was a delay of more than a month and beyond the 17 Jan phone-porting deadline.

Zen "pulled forward" the tasking of OpenReach to address whatever the issues were, and said an engineer would be at the cabinet today (Thu 16 Jan) to sort things out, and he might want to visit the premises too.  I committed to staying in for such a visit.

The engineer turned up.  He confirmed that everything in the cabinet was correctly set up and tested.  He then checked out the sockets and connections at the premises.  Router all plugged in correctly.  Good signal and connection at the socket (he did all kinds of tests, said that broadband connection was available, with speed of 30 megs).  Fritzbox router powered up, showed power and WLAN.  But no connection to the internet....

He ran various diagnostics, logged in to the router's control panel, and was baffled.  His analysis was that the router was not identifying itself or giving/getting a "handshake" with the Zen servers (I didn't grasp all the technical details).  So he spoke to Zen tech support.

Long story short, after much discussion and checking, a "factory reset" of the Fritzbox router.  And Hey Presto!   Internet connection.  Loud clear and strong.  And so it has remained all day.

Go figure, as they say.  It is hard to avoid the suspicion that the Fritzbox router, supplied by Zen with all settings supposedly pre-programmed, was the problem all along.  There might never have been an defect at the cabinet.  Whatever OpenReach and/or Zen were doing remotely over the past month to track and identify the problem, they evidently weren't looking at the router settings.  Nor did they suggest or ask me to do so.

If that assessment is accurate (and it was certainly OpenReach engineer's view that the problem was with Zen, not the OR network), that doesn't exactly reflect well on Zen.  Their customer service people have spent the past month delaying the changeover, apologising and making excuses to me, and blaming Openreach and - in respect of the phone cutoff - Plusnet.

We're not yet out of the woods.  Now we have broadband I still await the activation of our digital voice (VOIP) service using the ported number from our landline.  It needs to happen tomorrow.  We shall see.....

But the latest twist - adding insult to injury - is an automated email from Zen this evening notifying compensation for the delay in delivery of service:  the sum of £36.60 for a delay  of - wait for it - 6 days!

How they reckon the period from 18 Dec (the designated switch date) to 16 Jan adds up to a delay of 6 days I cannot fathom.  Either Zen can't even do simple arithmetic;  or their automatic systems are rubbish;  or this is a deliberate try-on.  I have responded in pretty blunt terms, with documented evidence of the 29 day-delay, pointing out that the Ofcom rules mean that £176.90 is due in compensation.  Again we shall see what Zen's response to that will be.

Conclusion?  Looks like I'm now stuck with Zen for the 18-month duration of the contract I signed, though I still await the VOIP phone activation.  And the jury is still considering the verdict on this whole case.  It certainly hasn't lived up to Zen's claims of being an efficient and reliable provider.

QrizB

Glad to know you're back with broadband!

Possibly not the best of times to ask, but what do you think of the FritzBox router? I've been wondering about buying one since they seem to have more bells & whistles (& have the settings unlocked) than the average piece of ISP future-ewaste.