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Zen Internet - all mouth and no trousers?

I’ve browsed the forum for references to Zen, but now need to seek comments and advice on my latest experience.   I’m afraid the narrative is a bit lengthy.

We live in an area where full fibre FTTP is not yet available, and alternative fibre/cable providers are not operating.  So all broadband providers apparently depend on the local OpenReach network and infrastructure.

We have been Plusnet customers for almost 20 years, for broadband and in recent years also our landline phone.  Our latest contract with them ended on 23 December.  With the prospect of cessation of all landline phone service within the next year or so, we concluded it was time to look at our options – both for broadband and phone.

For broadband, part-fibre (FTTC) was on offer from various providers including Plusnet.  But Plusnet warned us that an FTTC contract would mean loss of the landline phone – and they do not offer a digital voice (VOIP) service.  We wished to retain our landline number and ideally, arrange a contract which included FTTC broadband and a digital voice service with our existing phone number.

BT Openreach can provide both services, as do others.  Many providers offer fixed term contracts (18 or 24 months) but with built in annual price increases of inflation plus 3.9%.  A few, including Zen, offer both services but with no in-contract price increase.  So we opted to place an order with Zen, encouraged by their generally good and long established reputation for quality service.

The experience has been a catalogue of failures and disasters.  It’s not over yet.  But I’d welcome comments.

The order was placed on 4 December.   Zen said they needed just 3-4 days advance notice to set the changeover date.  When the order was placed, we agreed to a switch date of 18 December:  two weeks notice, with the switch just a few days before expiry of our Plusnet contract.  The transfer was supposedly to be done under the Ofcom OneTouch Switch process, managed and coordinated entirely by Zen.

The 18 Dec date was confirmed by emails both from Zen and from Openreach (OR).  Ahead of that Zen delivered a new router, which was successfully connected at the house and tested (their installation instructions were inaccurate, but that’s a separate and minor issue). So we disconnected the Plusnet router.

Failure #1.  18 December came and went.  By the end of the day, and after several phone conversations with Zen, no switch, and no internet connection.  In phone calls and emails the following morning, Zen said that OR engineers had encountered a problem “at the cabinet” and had requested two more days to fix it.  We agreed.

Failure #2.  By the end of 20 December, two days later, still no internet connection.  And several email messages and phone advice from Zen that the switch would have to be rescheduled for 9 January.  Some messages were contradictory:  one stating that an engineer visit to the premises would be needed was subsequently overtaken by a message saying no such visit would be needed.
Failure #3.  Meanwhile, our landline phone had gone dead.  This became a whole separate problem with Zen and Plusnet each blaming each other.  Despite the One Touch Switch rules, Zen said I should take this up with Plusnet directly.  Eventually I did so, to be told that Plusnet had ceased the service on 18 Dec, having been told by Zen that was the switch date.  Apparently when Zen did inform Plusnet – after 18 Dec – of the delayed switch, Plusnet were unable (or not permitted) to reinstate the landline phone service.  We remain without a landline phone and have asked Zen to make sure that the number is retained/recovered so that it can be used for the VOIP service when we actually have an internet connection again.  That window for re-use of the phone number apparently only lasts 30 days (ie to 18 Jan).

Failure #4.  We waited the further two weeks until 9 January (yesterday).  On 30 Dec I took the precaution of formally emailing Zen to instruct them to check with OR well ahead of the new 9 January switch date that the engineering problem had been fixed.  I do not know if Zen did so.  But they confirmed that the switch was firmly scheduled for the morning of 9 Jan, and quoted a job reference number.   Well well, 9 January came and went.  No switch, no internet connection.
Zen claimed in successive phone calls that they were awaiting notification from Openreach of the switch activation going live, at which point the Zen internet connection would automatically be made.  This was supposed to happen by the end of the day,.  They would check the next morning.    

Well, today, 10 Jan, no surprise:  still no internet connection.  Over a month from placing the order, three weeks since the original switch date, three postponements/delays and three failures to deliver.  The Zen customer service people have been unfailingly polite and profusely apologetic.  But they seem incapable of actually taking any practical action, beyond repeated offers to chase Openreach.  Totally ineffective.  All mouth and no trousers.

It looks as if we have reached the end of the road.  This situation is both unsustainable and unacceptable.  I have to decide on next steps.

- do I continue this saga and simply continue pressing Zen?  They are already well into delivery delay and failure territory, and obliged to pay compensation under Ofcom rules for the delay.  But that is by way of credit when …. or indeed if … I actually have an active service with Zen.  Ans I am no longer confident that they will ever deliver.

- do I pull the plug immediately and seek to retain and continue my internet service with Plusnet (which, claim Zen, will not actually be terminated until the new Zen service goes live)?  That leaves the landline phone service in limbo, but that’s less critical than ensuring internet access.

- do I raise a formal complaint with Ofcom and/or CISAS?  I have already registered my concerns – very politely – with Zen’s front line customer service people, and there is a full audit trail of some 20 emails and as many phone calls.

Unsurprisingly, I am less than impressed.  Has Zen lost the plot?

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Comments

  • iniltous
    iniltous Posts: 3,506 Forumite
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    edited 10 January pm31 1:20PM
    What was your Plusnet broadband, was it FTTC or ADSL ( so you were already on FTTC and simply switching ISP , or your switch to FTTC with Zen was from Plusnet ADSL ) ?
    The telephony is something of a red herring, by electing to move providers your telephone service was always going to be via your broadband, wether Zen have a proprietary IP service or simply sell another company’s VoIP is irrelevant, you won’t use the existing phone socket on the wall but the phone connection is via the Zen supplied router or an ATA connected to the router , so your  ‘issue’ is why you have no broadband, not why no telephony , broadband is a prerequisite for IP telephony .

    If you were with Plusnet broadband and already on FTTC , then there is no real difference between what PN supplied and what Zen we’re going to supply, both using Openreach FTTC infrastructure, however , the FTTC ‘cabinet’ may need a spare port to deliver the Zen service , it’s not necessarily the existing FTTC equipment used by PN is simply reconfigured to be used by Zen…..check your address here , where SoGEA is displayed does it say available or waiting list ….if waiting list , basically Zen shouldn’t have offered service on a FTTC cabinet with no spare capacity , this potentially is the problem selling you SoGEA when no spare equipment is available….the OTS ( one touch switching ) is an extra complication as the old system NOTs ( notice of transfer ) on Openreach systems doesn’t apply .

    https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL/AddressHome

    If the SoGEA ( that’s FTTC without any PSTN telephone ) is showing as available then it’s difficult to see what the problem can be , but the one indisputable fact is that it’s Zens  problem to fix , you have no contractual relationship with Openreach , and presumably your relationship with Plusnet has already ended .

    FWIW , should you return to PN it will be almost certainly as a broadband only customer, PN offer to switch to BT or EE customers that want to keep telephony but I recon that ship has sailed 
  • littleboo
    littleboo Posts: 1,666 Forumite
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    Zen has a had a very good reputation but there are some that say its not so good now and they trade on past glories. 

    Were you moving from ADSL to FTTC? If so, there could be a capacity issue with the cabinet. You can check by putting your details in here https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL

    On the plus side, Zen are part of the automatic compensation scheme so you can expect £6.10 per day.

  • br1anst0rm
    br1anst0rm Posts: 78 Forumite
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    Thanks to both @iniltous and @littleboo for those replies.  I should have made clear that my previous service from Plusnet was ADSL, so the switch I was aiming for and expecting was from that to an FTTC service provided by Zen.

    I agree that the transition from landline phone to digital voice (VOIP) is a secondary issue.  Knowing that VOIP requires an internet connection, it just looked convenient to shift to Zen's FTTC internet service and then add on the VOIP service straightaway, thus retaining the 'old' landline number.  That move to VOIP (whether with Zen or a separate telephony provider) has to be done within 30 days if the 'old' number to be retained.

    I have checked our address on that linked BT website.  Under the WBC SOGEA heading is shows that VDSL Range A and Range B are available (whatever that means);  the G.fast options are not available.  The exchange is not a priority for FTTP (I knew that), and there is no SOADSL restriction.

    I'm no techie.   But that website does seem to suggest that there is no obstacle or capacity issue.  I don't know - and it seems neither does Zen - why Openreach have proved incapable of doing whatever is required to enable the switch.    And it's not for me to investigate or solve the matter:  that's OpenReach's responsibility.  They have had since early December;  and this is not a new or complex operation, just a simple switch of an existing service with upgrade from ADSL to FTTC.  Plusnet could have done this immediately if I had renewed my contract with them.

    The fact is that they have not done the job, and Zen has failed to get them to do what is required.  I get the impression that someone - OpenReach? - is being evasive, dishonest, or at least economical with the truth. The latest update, relayed by Zen customer service today, is once again that OpenReach say they have not completed the work, they won't be able to do anything now until next week, and they cannot give any undertaking as to when the job will be done.  And in  theory I could be waiting for days.... weeks .... months.

    I recognise that my contractual relationship is with Zen, and under the OTS process they are supposed to manage the whole exercise.  The point is that they have failed.

    Being eligible for compensation is little consolation, not least because it looks as if that is normally only paid after a delayed service is (eventually) provided, and by Zen giving credit against the ongoing monthly contract payment.  The point is that I don't know if or when I will ever get a service from Zen.  Meanwhile I have already made the advance payment of £53 which they required (a £15 'transfer fee'  - for what exactly? -  and the first month's contract amount for broadband plus digital phone).  And what's the point of compensation if I'm left with no internet service and no phone?

  • littleboo
    littleboo Posts: 1,666 Forumite
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    edited 10 January pm31 4:10PM
    If you haven't asked Zen to transfer the number, you could ask A&A to do that as a standalone service. They are very good and still may be able to get the number within the 30 day window, worth asking them. https://www.aa.net.uk/

    This would mean that you would need either a new phone or an adapter to use the VOIP service, but it means in future you can changes ISP's and the voice service isn't affected. 

    If the problem is at the cabinet, then the problem would be there regardless if you were using Plusnet, Zen or anyone else. The difference between the ISP's is how well they manage these issues when they occur. ADSL and FTTC are quite different products so its not really an upgrade, its a new service over new infrastructure. But that should still be a painless exercise.

    The compensation means you can get an alternative solution for the interim - mobile internet for example, and not be out of pocket.
  • iniltous
    iniltous Posts: 3,506 Forumite
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    edited 10 January pm31 4:01PM
    You have completely missed the point , you have  no contractual relationship with OR , they have no responsibility towards you , even if it ultimately OR’s ‘fault’ ( and that can’t be established anyway )  , the fact is your order was made with Zen , not Openreach, in the same way Zen have a responsibility to you , OR ( should they be at fault ) have a responsibility to Zen , and compensate them , should the failure be Openreach’s, but as far as apportionment of blame , Zen have a vested interest and so any ‘explanation’ needs to be viewed through that lens, the chances are you will never know what the issue is and any explanation from the ISP needs to be treated with caution….after all how do you even know Zen raised an order that OR failed to deliver, it’s unlikely but can’t be discounted either .

    To the  right of the predicted line speeds from VDSL is WBC SoGEA availablity, it should say waiting list or available, if it’s ’available’ then there is no capacity issue , if it’s waiting list , then Zen  sold you something that wasn’t available in the fist place , hence the reason to check .

    As stated , you are totally dependent on Zen , there are many possible issues ( assuming WBC SoGEA shows available ) some OR are responsible for ( but they are responsible to Zen not you ) some have nothing to do with Openreach , it could be you are connected successfully in the OR FTTC cabinet , but there is no interconnection into the Zen network ( so no configuration has been provided by Zen )  , it could be OR haven’t connect you in the FTTC cabinet, or the allocated port is faulty , it could be the OR records are wrong , and your ‘line’ although recorded as being via a particular ‘cabinet’ , isn’t connected to the recorded cabinet so connection is impossible, or even your line isn’t connected via a cabinet at all ( an E/O line , exchange only ) ….. it can only be speculation on our part what the issue is , but Zen are your ISP , it’s their problem to fix , even if that includes them chasing Openreach .

    If you bought a new car and it broke down due to a faulty battery , you wouldn’t allow the retailer to simply blame the battery manufacturer, you didn’t buy a battery you bought a car , you would  expect the car retailer to replace the battery or do whatever was necessary to get you going  , not simply shrug their shoulders and point you in the direction of the battery manufacturer…..this is no different, OR didn’t sell you anything , Zen did 
  • br1anst0rm
    br1anst0rm Posts: 78 Forumite
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    @littleboo ... you are absolutely right:  "If the problem is at the cabinet, then the problem would be there regardless if you were using Plusnet, Zen or anyone else. The difference between the ISP's is how well they manage these issues when they occur."

    I decided to speak to Plusnet, just to explore what my options were if I pulled the plug on the switch to Zen and requested to renew contract with them.  As expected, they said  they could offer a new contract but (a) they couldn't reinstate my landline, and (b) just like you they said that for an upgraded, FTTC contract they - like Zen - were dependent on Openreach.  So the same difficulties might arise (though Plusnet said that they thought they would have better chances of getting OpenReach to deliver....).

    As regards the landline - or rather, the phone number - we did ask for it to be transferred (ported) to a Zen-provided VOIP service along with the - new - broadband service on which it dependsThere has been some dispute over who had control of that number in the interim.  Plusnet said it remained on their books for 30 days and Zen had to request the transfer.  Zen said they had made such a request, but that Openreach had rejected it "because the landline phone service had already been ceased" [on 18 Dec, when the switch should have happened but didn't].  We may have to pursue that argument further to get the phone number retained and reinstated for VOIP;  and I know we have the option of setting that up separately with A&A or some other digital voice provider.  But once again, Openreach seems to be raising obstacles.

    The prospect of compensation (which Zen will have to pay) eases the pain slightly.  We have - and are having to make heavy use of - our mobile phones.  But it misses the point:  that the performance of Openreach and the delays and procrastination resulting from their apparent inability to deliver on agreed commitments by agreed deadlines has been abysmal, and they are not being held to account for their failures.


  • iniltous
    iniltous Posts: 3,506 Forumite
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    Shame you have no contract with Openreach and they owe you nothing ,
  • br1anst0rm
    br1anst0rm Posts: 78 Forumite
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    Thanks @iniltous (I have only just seen your longer post above).

    The BTW table clearly states that SOGEA is available at our address.  So by your assessment, that's not the problem and Zen hasn't mis-sold anything

    I'm very aware that my contract is with Zen.  And it is for Zen to engage with OpenReach.They say they are doing so.  That's why I've been in such regular exchanges with Zen by phone and email.  I do indeed expect them (like the car retailer) to get a grip and ensure delivery of solutions, not just offer sympathy and apology.  Hence the title I gave to this thread.

    It's not my task to figure out what is, or might be, the technical explanation for OpenReach's failure to deliver on the agreed commitment to switch on the date they confirmed and agreed.  I respect those whose knowledge allows them to speculate.  But that misses the point.

    What I would expect - from both Zen and through them from OpenReach - is honesty, transparency, clear explanation, and accurate information, and reliable service.   I'm not getting it.  I have the impression that Zen aren't getting this either.  And so that leaves the space open for speculation.  

    At the end of the day a product has been ordered.  Delivery was confirmed and agreed.  The product hasn't materialised.  That needs to be sorted - by those responsible.  Simples.
  • iniltous
    iniltous Posts: 3,506 Forumite
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    edited 10 January pm31 6:00PM
    As stated there are various issues that could have caused your migration to fail , you only have a single point of contact so are entirely dependent on Zens  ‘take’ on what the issue is , but  IMHO  , you would be extremely naive to simply accept whatever they say without question, after all if it were their mistake would they confess or simply deflect blame knowing that has placated you .
    You would  be wrong to expect that Openreach would somehow inform you of issues and keep you updated directly , that’s not allowed , this is an Ofcom stipulation, years ago Openreach floated the idea of liaising directly with end users with provisions and repairs , a proposal that was dismissed immediately by the communications industry ( including Zen )  , basically Zen ( in your case ) don’t want Openreach contacting you , they want any and all communication with you have to be with them , not their supplier.

    The implication  is that Openreach can fail , with no repercussions , is wrong , Zen are compensated for any Openreach failure ( should the failure be Openreach ) so any compensation you may be due from Zen , is more than refunded to them by OR , Zen paying you compensation in effect doesn’t affect Zens bottom line , that financial penalty for Openreach is incentive enough for OR to react to failure quickly , obviously if the failure is Openreach’s.

    Obviously you believe what you believe and apportion blame however you see fit , irrespective of how fair or unfair that may be , it strikes me as odd to apportion blame when you have nothing to base that on , apart from a Zen employee , hardly an impartial opinion, but ultimately even if Openreach have failed, the measure of a decent ISP is how they resolve issues , there are several ways to expedite resolution , if you are happy for Zen to simply agree with you that it’s a terrible situation and they wish they could do something but their hands are tied , being completely at the mercy of ~Openreach etc rather than actually doing anything , that up to you , but you are simply letting them off the hook .
  • littleboo
    littleboo Posts: 1,666 Forumite
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    Once a number has been ceased, a port attempt can fail because the number is not active. That's probably what has happened, so the port has failed for a legitimate reason. The number can still be ported, but it needs a provider who understands the process - A&A is one who does, Zen perhaps don't. That's why I suggested A&A
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