Zen Internet - all mouth and no trousers?

br1anst0rm

iniltous said:

.....there are various issues that could have caused your migration to fail , you only have a single point of contact so are entirely dependent on Zens  ‘take’ on what the issue is , but  IMHO  , you would be extremely naive to simply accept whatever they say without question, after all if it were their mistake would they confess or simply deflect blame knowing that has placated you .
You would  be wrong to expect that Openreach would somehow inform you of issues and keep you updated directly , that’s not allowed , this is an Ofcom stipulation, years ago Openreach floated the idea of liaising directly with end users with provisions and repairs , a proposal that was dismissed immediately by the communications industry ( including Zen )  , basically Zen ( in your case ) don’t want Openreach contacting you , they want any and all communication with you have to be with them , not their supplier

The implication  is that Openreach can fail , with no repercussions , is wrong , Zen are compensated for any Openreach failure ( should the failure be Openreach ) so any compensation you may be due from Zen , is more than refunded to them by OR , Zen paying you compensation in effect doesn’t affect Zens bottom line , that financial penalty for Openreach is incentive enough for OR to react to failure quickly , obviously if the failure is Openreach’s.

Obviously you believe what you believe and apportion blame however you see fit , irrespective of how fair or unfair that may be , it strikes me as odd to apportion blame when you have nothing to base that on , apart from a Zen employee , hardly an impartial opinion, but ultimately even if Openreach have failed, the measure of a decent ISP is how they resolve issues , there are several ways to expedite resolution , if you are happy for Zen to simply agree with you that it’s a terrible situation and they wish they could do something but their hands are tied , being completely at the mercy of ~Openreach etc rather than actually doing anything , that up to you , but you are simply letting them off the hook .

There is a contradiction in this your most recent post, @iniltous.  

On the one hand you claim that it is "naive" to rely on Zen to provide information/explanation/updates.  On the other you recognise - as you have said previously - that the contract is with Zen, and that it is not for me to communicate with OpenReach or for them to inform me.

If Zen is my sole interlocutor and my contract is with them, what they say is all I have to go on.  That does not mean I believe or accept everything they say.  Indeed as my previous detailed posts have explained, I have interrogated them rigorously on all the information they have offered.

So I am left wondering what point you are making.  You appear to be trying to make excuses for OpenReach or absolve them from any responsibility or blame.  And you accuse me of "letting Zen off the hook".  The first is inexplicable and the second is unjustified nonsense. 

My interest is not in apportioning blame.  And it is not for me to research into what detailed technical issues or obstacles there may have been.  Nor is it for me to investigate who did - or failed to do - whatever was required.  Nor to prescribe who should pay what compensation to whom.  

I do however expect those who are instructed - and paid - to undertake a task and deliver a service to take responsibility and to be accountable.

As the client, what matters to me is that Zen should ensure that the switch operation and activation of the services works smoothly and promptly.  The product I have ordered which they have agreed to supply should be delivered as agreed and on the date which they proposed.  This they have failed to do.

iniltous

Not sure anything I said is contradictory, it’s a fact that Zen are your only point of contact, to expect Openreach to advise you of anything is not the way Zen want Openreach to deal with you , you are not Openreach’s customer, Zen are .

For myself to suggest Zen are hardly an ‘honest broker’ seems reasonable, when they have a fairly obvious vested interest in blaming their supplier regardless of where the problem lies , that isn’t contradictory at all , it does however put you in a situation where the if the only info have is via your provider… ( that unfortunately is the way it is ) then it does actually furnish you with a rather simple proposition as to your way forward, you ask Zen what the problem is , and what the resolution is , and basically say you won’t accept any excuses that Openreach are to  ‘ blame’ , because you are not an Openreach customer and they have no obligation to you , if they suggest they are powerless to do anything , your comment again should be straightforward, you are not Openreach’s customer but Zens , and if Zen ( not Openreach ) cannot supply explanation ( if that’s what you want )  although it’s irrelevant as far as progress is concerned , and a date at which the problem will be resolved, then you should ask to be released  from any contractual obligation and find an ISP that can deliver better service, it’s simply a cop out for Zen to say they are powerless, there are multiple avenues to expedite resolution to issues, this won’t be their first rodeo, obviously depending on what the issue is , the problem may turn out to be insurmountable, if for example the records are wrong  you can’t  have SoGEA because of incorrect addresseing information.

What I’m not saying is Openreach are blameless, I don’t know who has messed up , but I don’t automatically assume it’s them , I certainly don’t simply accept what the ISP says without some reasonable explanation, if an ISP can logically explain where OR messed up , that may be interesting but surely the more important thing would be what the ISP have done to instruct OR as you can’t do that yourself ( they appear to have not given you any explanation of the issue anyway  ) , and more importantly they should appreciate that the only way forward is by the them , the ISP actually doing something rather than passively saying how terrible it must be for you and doing nothing at all , which seems to be the case with you .

Finally your to comment , 

I do however expect those who are instructed - and paid - to undertake a task and deliver a service to take responsibility and to be accountable.

on this we absolutely agree , because it’s undeniable  that this is Zen , you neither instructed Openreach anything or paid Openreach anything , which is my entire point , you are entitled to an explanation and a way forward from Zen, no one else , if Openreach are at fault , then Zen should actually be doing something to get OR to deal with the issue , if you feel better by Zen ‘blaming’ Openreach , sympathising on how terrible it must be to be you , but doing **** all about it , then more fool you .

br1anst0rm

@iniltous ... I think we are agreed on this point:   "....  more importantly they [Zen] should appreciate that the only way forward is by them, the ISP actually doing something rather than passively saying how terrible it must be for you and doing nothing at all ....".

I am not expecting that seeing Zen blaming OpenReach and doing nothing would make me "feel better".  That is a foolish and unworthy remark.

In my earlier posts I described the 'explanations' I got from Zen (which evidently came from OpenReach) not least in order to get others' views on the credibility of what I was being told. 

I still don't know whether the delays in my specific case are down to arcane technical issues, lack of expertise, poor administration, ineffective communication, inadequate liaison, staff shortages, or some other reason(s).  Bottom line is, I don't - or shouldn't need to - know or care. The only information given to me so far is that "....OpenReach have problems dealing with engineering problems at the cabinet...".  

Another objective of posting on the forum was to ascertain whether others had had similar experiences.  If so then there might be useful conclusions to be drawn about possible solutions.  A trawl of other forums has revealed numerous examples of similar issues (with, in some cases, knowledgeable comment and speculative observations about how  well or badly OpenReach, or BT Wholesale, or others, were dealing with the technical tasks around copper wires, fibre-optic cables, distance from cabinet, etc etc.).  Some have also expressed the view that Zen is in effect, no longer staffed, organised or equipped to manage and deal with difficulties that arise.

I agree that, as you say, ".... Zen should be doing something to get OR to deal with the issue...".  That is why I have submitted a formal complaint to Zen under the rules drawn up by Ofcom, with an explicit request that they take action by a specified deadline to ensure delivery of the order, activation of the internet connection, and provision of a VOIP service as ordered and agreed.   How they do that, and how they mobilise OpenReach, is up to them.  If they don't, I think I will have compelling grounds to cancel the order and claim compensation.

username

Part of the problem as I see it is that there isn't any open communication from Zen/Openreach to yourself.
For me, if I were in your place I would rather have updates cut and paste verbatim as is from OR and their engineers by Zen and not glossed over with a catch-all 'engineering fault' term, given that Zen (or at least in the beginning) are aimed and were more for the technical user who would appreciate such matters.

The service that Zen have provided on your router they shipped? Is this the Zen FTTC service you have purchased, or is it just Zen ADSL? Or Plusnet ADSL? If you go to a speed test site like speedtest.net it will tell you who the ISP is and the speedtest can given an indication of the technology and which ISP.

As a country we always seem to (more often than not) make a meal of any transitions for technology - surely if the plan was to remove physical landlines, a system should have been set up to effortlessly detangle the landline number from the actual line plant to allow it to move freely without killing the attached broadband service.

i would also think that speed is of the essence for the quarantined number, and I would also find another escalation point within Zen  - perhaps to the director's office to actually get a handle on the situation, and possibly a better explanation.

flaneurs_lobster

username said:

The service that Zen have provided on your router they shipped? Is this the Zen FTTC service you have purchased, or is it just Zen ADSL? Or Plusnet ADSL? If you go to a speed test site like speedtest.net it will tell you who the ISP is and the speedtest can given an indication of the technology and which ISP.

A speed test? Where there's no service? That'll work then.

username

flaneurs_lobster said:

username said:

The service that Zen have provided on your router they shipped? Is this the Zen FTTC service you have purchased, or is it just Zen ADSL? Or Plusnet ADSL? If you go to a speed test site like speedtest.net it will tell you who the ISP is and the speedtest can given an indication of the technology and which ISP.

A speed test? Where there's no service? That'll work then.

Apologies, I missed the bit that they'd had no service at all on the internet (!) I assumed that they'd used the router sent and it had connected in some way and picked up an internet service on the line and the voice phone service was not available.
I do wonder the backout plan is for situations such as this, given that the service can't be provided for whatever the reason, should the OP want to sack off Zen entirely?

br1anst0rm

I think I should respond to clarify the slight confusion evident in the posts from @username and @flaneurs_lobster.  

I'm aiming/expecting, and had hoped, to switch from an ADSL broadband service and home landline phone service both provided/managed by Plusnet, to an FTTC broadband service and digital voice (VOIP) from Zen.  That's what I signed up to and what the OneTouch Switch process is supposed to deliver, with Zen managing the transition.

The groundrules for switching from one provider to another (presumably laid down by Ofcom) stipulate that the "old" connection should not be terminated until the "new" service is activated.   So Plusnet are not supposed to pull the plug until they get formal notification from Zen that the new service has been activated.

I have a new router from Zen, which has ports both for broadband and VOIP phone.  I'm expected to plug that in on the day of changeover, and at that time unplug the Plusnet broadband router and plug my telephone handset into the Zen router to get the VOIP service.

Well on the originally-confirmed switch date (18 Dec) that's what I did.  But of course I got no connection to the internet through the new Zen router - because Zen/Openreach had not enabled that connection.  So I reinstated the old Plusnet router and thankfully internet access was and is still possible via my "old" Plusnet connection - because Plusnet had not (yet) been told that the new Zen connection had gone live.  

So in effect I am still a customer of Plusnet broadband.  I still have an account with them, and am still able to connect to the internet through their service (and have been doing so since 18 Dec).  But as my last fixed-term contract with them ended on 23 Dec I will now be billed at whatever full out-of-contract rate Plusnet charges.  Nevertheless I am very grateful to Plusnet for keeping the connection active.

The phone is a bit of a mess.  Obviously the new VOIP service which Zen is to provide will depend on their router and their connection.  They said it would be activated a few days after the broadband connection was up and running.  But of course that hasn't yet happened.   And because Zen told Plusnet that the switch would happen on 18 Dec, and then didn't inform Plusnet of the postponement, Plusnet ceased the landline phone on 18 Dec.  So that landline is now dead (no dial tone).  

Zen and Plusnet are each trying to blame each other:  Zen saying that Plusnet ceased the phone line "prematurely" , while Plusnet point out - correctly - that Zen didn't notify them, as they should have done, of the delay and date-change.  And apparently now - under the rules and because landlines are being phased out -  Plusnet and all other providers are not allowed to set up.... or reinstate! .... a landline phone service which has been ceased.

So for the phone, the critical issue is that if we wish to retain that landline number (which we do) and have it applied to the new VOIP service, Zen has to port the number within 30 days from the date the landline was ceased, or the number is "lost".  

Zen has made a complete Horlicks of that.  They failed to arrange for Plusnet to keep the phoneline active when the switchover was delayed.  And then when they requested the porting of the number, they say that BT rejected the request to port the number "because the landline service had already been stopped" .   Talk about Catch 22!

In principle Zen should still be able to salvage the situation and retrieve the number for use with the VOIP service.  But that would have to be done within the 30 days - ie by 17 Jan.  And already their delivery of the internet service on which that VOIP phone will depend has been delayed three times, is still not activated, and we are now just a few days away from that 30-day deadline.

Zen could hardly have done worse.  I have already submitted a formal complaint into their system with an ultimatum to deliver both broadband and internet by the deadline of 17 Jan.  Given the story so far, I'm not optimistic.  If I could find a name and direct address or email for Zen's chairman/managing director, I would definitely be tackling them.

In terms of backup plan, or alternatives, I am sorely tempted to pull the plug on Zen and ask Plusnet to maintain their service and my account and I'll sign a new (broadband) contract with them.  But that will mean a definite goodbye to any phone service (as Plusnet don't offer VOIP) and - I have no doubt - a long and unpleasant wrangle with Zen to secure refund of the advance payments I have already made to them (£15 transfer fee, £32 first month's broadband, plus £6 for digital voice) and to get the compensation which Ofcom rules say is payable in respect of delayed or non-delivery of a service.

@username is right.  As a supposedly developed first-world country, the UK - and its regulatory authorities, agencies and service providers - should be capable of setting up and running a system which enables the seamless and efficient transfer and delivery of basic services,  whether that be electricity, gas, water, phonelines or internet connections.  I am exasperated with Zen, unimpressed by OpenReach, sceptical about Ofcom, and embarrassed about the country in which I live.

username

Thanks for your recap of the situation. I can't also help but think the addition of another party (the one touch switching co -Totsco for short who own this process) will have added another layer of complexity. All good and well for situations whereby it is straightforward and there's no hiccups but a disaster when there's problems, as is in this case.

Have you raised a formal complaint with Plusnet regarding the landline number issue? It seems completely daft that there is no safeguard to reverse what appears to be a cease in error of the landline service, if the back and forth is to be believed. The attitude of intransigence is poor, if they are able to disconnect it then they should be able to reconnect it, irrespective of what some arbitrary edict says about phasing out of landlines, and have the mechanism to restore you back to exactly the previous former position in the event of issues.

As much as you want this to be hands off and playing by the rules for one touch switching, given the tight deadline for retrieval of the dead landline number, you will need to make at both Plusnet and Zen to escalate this and get it beyond the first levels of customer service/support. Even if you write to the CEO or Director you may end up with a more competent team whose job is to solely resolve or look at complicated issues.

br1anst0rm

Thanks, @username, those are helpful thoughts.  

As regards the One Touch Switch service, my understanding is that this is not some additional party or organisation.  It's a procedure or scheme, devised I assume by Ofcom in consultation with ISPs or their trade association, to which provider companies sign up (as both Zen and Plusnet have done).

The concept is very similar to that which exists (and I believe works) for switching bank accounts.  Under the rules of the OTS process, the new provider (Zen in this instance) commits to managing and handling the whole transfer or switch process.  This involves communicating with the client (me);  liaising, coordinating with and informing the 'old' provider;  and instructing and monitoring those (notably BT and/or Openreach, or other outside contractors) who have to do any tech work to enable the changeover.  

The theory is by having one player controlling and calling the shots, the switch should be managed in a joined-up fashion.  The client is supposed to have a single point of contact, and doesn't have to place separate orders or give separate instructions and negotiate dates with the various parties involved.  The changeover arrangements are supposed to be planned, coordinated and synchronised by one party (Zen) in the driving seat, with no conflicting requests or instructions, and no crossed wires from the others involved.

That's the theory.  Obviously it then requires that the provider leading and managing the exercise has to be efficient, competent and effectively in charge and capable of ensuring that "all the ducks are in a row".  I haven't had previous or past experience of changing ISPs or phone services,  The current situation has demonstrated unequivocally that Zen is incompetent and ineffective.  But their Ts & Cs (which I've now looked at) are very carefully drawn up to absolve them from any liability arising from the actions of others (eg OpenReach) or indeed their own failures.

As regards raising a complaint with Plusnet, I am hesitant.  It does seem daft that if they (or in reality BT whom they have to instruct) cease a landline phone service, then they aren't allowed to reinstate it.  But that is apparently now government regulation and/or BT policy, flowing from the decision to phase out all traditional copper-line phones by end-2025. 

Part of that means that BT and other providers cannot (= are not allowed to) market, sell or connect new landline phone services.  Nor can they reinstate existing lines once disconnected, except in very specific and exceptional cases where there may be a threat to life or a particular risk to vulnerable users (eg for certain kinds of online medical support or monitoring equipment). Even if Plusnet asked, BT as the controller of the whole landline infrastructure would, it seems, say "No".

And I have to say I sympathise with Plusnet who said that they cut our landline phone on the date notified to them by Zen as the activation date (18 Dec).  Zen separately advised me that the phone switch to VOIP would happen some 5 days after the new internet connection went live.  That date was then delayed by 2 days, then a week, then two weeks and is now a month.  But Zen didn't update Plusnet that the activation had slipped, until the day after Plusnet had already - in good faith - cut off the landline phone.  As I said, a Catch 22 situation.  

Reason and fair play would suggest that the line be reinstated until the switch to VOIP can actually be implemented.  Or at least that the number is preserved for allocation to the VOIP service when the connection is available.  But BT won't allow reinstatement, so Plusnet can't do that.  And Zen doesn't provide or manage landline phones.  The landline number can normally only be held or kept available for use with the VOIP service for 30 days - ie till 17 Jan.  Zen (which is responsible for managing and coordinating all this) seems incapable or unwilling to grip it.

So you're right:  this shambles need serious and high-level intervention.  But finding any contact details other than a c/o Zen HQ postal address for the CEO or any other top-level figure in Zen seems impossible.  Their website has no details other than the generic 'complaints' department, and an internet search reveals nothing other than the name of the CEO and founder/owner of Zen, a Mr Richard Tang.  If I can find a direct email for him I would certainly make use of it!  I suppose I could try posting him a letter - but time is almost too short for that.

M25

br1anst0rm said:

this shambles need serious and high-level intervention. 

Good luck with that.

Moving from ADSL to FTTC will increase the chance of a problem no doubt. There may be a problem that's been hidden for years. No evidence of that so far.

I don't see why Zen are being blamed I'm sure they're doing everything they can. 

What OpenReach has done or not done is none of your business.

If the line had a cease order by Plusnet I'm sure that started the problem. One touch moving is still not perfect and it's being ironed out but obviously it's not going to work very well if there's a ceased line.

I don't think you have a valid contract with Zen as they have failed -so far- to provide the service. The fact that was caused by Plusnet's ineptitude and maybe something going wrong with OR tell me me Plusnet are entirely responsible.

In hindsight you should have moved to FTTC with Plusnet and then moved to Zen.

Zen provide a very good service IME but they can't control Plusnet's error or OR problem solving (that's if there's even a problem). That is no excuse of course but it sounds like they've not been given a chance to resolve the situation [caused by your provider, Plusnet].

I have to say reading all your very detailed, expansive and sometimes irrelevant posts it's very difficult to grasp what exactly the problem is. If you speak on the phone to Zen or Plusnet or in a complaint like you type here that's not going to help you.